Potential gill flukes or BGD disease problems

[Filip]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
_________________________________________________

2 months ago I add new plants in my discus tank from my betta sorority tank . I didn't have bleach at hand at that moment for a proper plant sterilization so I hastily, only dip them in a +10 ppm PP solution for 10 minutes or so .



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
__________________________________________________

Symptom no 1 was scratching on objects .
Discus only started scratching on objects in the first 1-2 weeks after the plants were added but they were still in great appetite and condition back then .
Symptoms no 2 were clamped fins, opened gills and faster breathing .
After the initial 2 weeks scratching they stopped scratching but started clamping their fins , and some of them started breathing a bit heavily and with opened gills , but still doing good on appetite and activity.

Latest symptoms are lethargy and a loss of appetite .
This second month they started skiping meals , pick on foods , less active through the day , not begging for food etc.

The biggest discus with a biggest loss of appetite also shows a very particular symptom during feedings .He approach the food and than starts shaking his head left and right instead of biting the food .

Broken scales(ussualy only 1or 2 scales ) on different places of the discus body are detectable too .


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

__________________________________________________

So far I tried the Andrew Soh's recommendation for performing 3 consecutive 2ppm 4 hour PP baths every 4 th day to break the fluke egg cycle.

My filter was bypassed in a bucket with 5% salt solution along with PP during the treatments .
My decor ( plants and driftwood ) were also treated separately with 2 ppm PP , 4 hour bath in a separate bucket during discus treatments .

The results were minimal and not lasting and the fish appeared happier and more active only the next day , but afterwards back to the old symptoms .
No luck with PP treats so far .


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
_________________________________________________

65 G tank , 11 discus all of them 10 months of age ranging from 4 to 6 inches , being approx. 5 inch discus most of them .


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
__________________________________________________

60 to 90% daily , depending on time and feedings .


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
__________________________________________________

Tank is running for 8 months , it's a bare bottom grow out tank with some potted plants and a driftwood . Bottom is vacumed and cleaned daily along with the WCs .

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
__________________________________________________

I age 50% of the tottal changed water for 24 hours with a strong pump and water agitation.
PH swing is only 0.2 to 0.3 and discus can eat right after a WCs and they doesn't seemed bothered by it .

8. Parameters and water source;
_________________________________________________


- temp __82 F

- ph _ 7.6 out of tap , 8.2 once stabilized and aged

- ammonia reading __0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ___10 Ppm at worst before a WC , 7 ppm straight out of tap .

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water ___100%

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
________________________________________________

New plants from an overcrowded Betta tank . I suspect that the plants were flukes egg carriers .
In a lack of bleach I only dip them in a PP solution , and that proved to be a very BIG mistake .


10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
_________________________________________________
I use to fed them 5 times a day Tetra bits , BH , frozen shrimps and artemia .
Now they only eat 2 times a day at max , and only eat BH and Artemia.


11. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

I'll try to add pics additionaly of clamped fins , broken scales and opened gills if I manage to take decent pics of the symptoms.

For now i will just put a photo of the tank with decor and the discus :

image-0-02-05-17f04d4bb12731fb6ca4c9c83e5d88b81ca6de6beacd7a22fb8d55c4d6ad2f60-V.jpg


What to do next when PP method isn't working and should I suspect something deeper like an bacterial gill disease (BGD ) or something else , since the PP baths aren't working ?

I have a sense that even though they are still in a good condition and still eating , they are slowly degrading in immunity and health and sooner or later they will start showing other illness unless I solve this original problem .

Any advice's or info is appreciated.

[brewmaster15]

Filip,
I think you may not be dealing with flukes here at all. Without a positive Id by a microscope its a guess at best whats going on here. If they are flukes, they most likely didnt come from the plants and instead they were always present on the fish from when you bought them but over time increased in numbers until they are finally over whelming the fish..

Since the problem appeared to start with the plants Its likely they did carry something in... my guess would be oodinium or some other protozoan..

Pp woud.knock back a protozoan temporarily but it wont eradicate it completely.

A few things to try.. formalin plus malachite green is one option. If it can be had in your Country. Its broad spectrum against many external pathogens. Seachems Paraguard is an alternative...

http://www.seachem.com/paraguard.php

The other thing you can try which will work well on flukes also is salt dips. Remove the plants from the tank... dispose of the filter material.. place fish in a salt dip in a bucket and clean your tank out thoroughly. replece fish to a sterile tank ... repeat as many times as needed until symptoms are gone. You will unfortunately lose your biofilter but this method is very effective.

hth,
al

[Filip]

Filip,
I think you may not be dealing with flukes here at all. Without a positive Id by a microscope its a guess at best whats going on here. If they are flukes, they most likely didnt come from the plants and instead they were always present on the fish from when you bought them but over time increased in numbers until they are finally over whelming the fish..

Since the problem appeared to start with the plants Its likely they did carry something in... my guess would be oodinium or some other protozoan..

Pp woud.knock back a protozoan temporarily but it wont eradicate it completely.

A few things to try.. formalin plus malachite green is one option. If it can be had in your Country. Its broad spectrum against many external pathogens. Seachems Paraguard is an alternative...

http://www.seachem.com/paraguard.php

The other thing you can try which will work well on flukes also is salt dips. Remove the plants from the tank... dispose of the filter material.. place fish in a salt dip in a bucket and clean your tank out thoroughly. replece fish to a sterile tank ... repeat as many times as needed until symptoms are gone. You will unfortunately lose your biofilter but this method is very effective.

hth,
al

Thanks for your quick help Al .

i was thinking the same thing lately Al . Having failed with the diligent PP procedure after reading many positive results on flukes using PP i began to thing that im barking on the wrong tree here , but i was hesitant what else to try from meds .

My next course will be your sugesstion on Formalin+ Malachite green combo based meds .
In fact i have one in my med. cabinet and im willing to try it .
Its name is COSTAPUR from the German company SERA .


Here is a little basic info on Sera Costapur :

Used against :

Water conditioner against Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (pathogen causing white spot disease) and other single celled skin parasites such as Ichthyobodo necator, Chilodonella, Trichodina, Brooklynella and Cryptocaryon irritans (the latter ones in marine water) as well as against infections by fungi (mycoses).

List of active ingredients / Composition:

100 ml of sera costapur contain:
malachite green oxalate 0.18 g
formaldehyde solution 5.89 g
aqua purificata ad 100 ml

Dosing :

Normal dosage: on the 1st and 3rd day add 1 ml or 22 drops for each 40 liters (10.5 US gal.) of
aquarium water, in severe cases dose again on the 5th and 7th day.

I would like your oppinion about dosing and in general about the medication . Do you think i should double the general dose , because discus are bigger and more med. tolerant fish than the most other freshwaters , or should i just follow the instructions ?


Second question is about the temperature Al.
Since im dealing with protozoa / parasites and a loss of discus apetite on top of that , would it be helpfull if i bump up the temp. to speed up the parasites life cycle or would i just end up with more parasites on discus that way ?
If it helps what temp .should i aim for , lower range 30-31 C or higer than that 33-34 C ?


And lastly the third and fourth question is about microsope examination of parasites .
I have a friend from high school that i havent seen in years , but i know that he works as a Doctor microbiologist . If i decide to ask him for help with his microssope and arange examination at his place, how long would be the mucus scrape viable before an examination, and hour or two maybe ?
And more important , how should i perform a gill scrape ? Do i enter deep in to the gill opening or should i just scrape the visible area , the beginning of the gill opening ?
i ve found many youtube videos about taking fish scrapes but i cant find one where they take the gill scrape .


Sorry if this post came out too long or anoying Al .
I know that you are very busy at the moment and i appreciate your help and time .

[brewmaster15]

Hi Filip,
No apology needed.

The med sounds much like our "quick cure"... the dosing sounds right..I would go with their regime. ..but carry it out as 4 doses .

I would not raise temp... though it may speed the life cycle up of the parasite..it could make things worse... it also is not advisable as these meds affect oxygen levels ..added aeration would not hurt.

The gill snip or scrape isnt something I can really go over here Filip...done wrong you could harm your fish. Its something you practice before you need it but you tube would be best if you.go that route.. If you do, you will want to examine the sample while fresh.

hth,al

[Filip]

Thanks Al.
I would start dosing as instructed and perform 4 doses every other day .

As of tonight I've noticed a new symptom on my most affected discus , the only one right now that breathes with opened and flared gills (he still eats well though ).
In a very close look I've noticed a ton of very small white dots all over its body . They are much smaller than the ich and they seem like little spikes bumping from its body. From today he also appeared rough and darker , that's why I eyeballed him and noticed this little white spikes .

Here are phone pics from them . Zoom might be needed as they appear very small on the pics .
Do they shed any new light to you on better diagnosing Al ???

image-0-02-04-fcf3b8de815ffb16275e98c02e863ce2fbe45aaab985bb60dae73f6f7ebac050-V.jpg

image-0-02-04-081762449c5905049cbc5cf1d094bbc51c7e0316bb5952e5d3479a4acf2c5d9b-V.jpg

image-0-02-04-4ffd07a14ee92e5a5464afc5cc892c421eb5a49e898055a009f76602092eecc4-V.jpg

image-0-02-05-9319295e2c9d84fe58a2acda79e07987f8fb4b952982e878e8515203c492051c-V.jpg

image-0-02-05-ff0cb78573bb7b80fb462ecbd5c09247b406fc086bef5e740cb903d490760520-V.jpg

[brewmaster15]

very peculiar... lets see how they react to formalin/ malachite green. Those are definetly not flukes!
al

[Filip]

Situation update .

Right after you have prognosed Odinum Al, i got this one discus with rough opaque velvet looking skin . Since yesterday there are more of them if not all of them , having that velvet / rough skin appearance , along with the clamped fins and weak appetite .

I have administered one dose Of F/MG based medicine in Friday , and today- Sunday , after 48 hours I have administered the second dose , right after a 100% WC .
Discus are still having that slight velvet , opaque appearance , and their appetite is still weak .
They ate well at the first meal today and I was happy about it , but tonight 10 hours after the first meal they didn't have that same gusto .

Now a couple of questions and dillemas:


1. I have turned off the lights during treatment , and only turn them on for half an hour during feedings.I've read that light might weaken the potency of F/MG and some oodinum species benefit from photosynthesis and light source .
How true is this , I wonder ?

2. Also I didn't put dechlor on this second dosing , because I was hesitant if Safe can neutralize the F/MG components in some way , like it does with the PP for instance .
Is it safe to dose safe dechlor along with F/MG based meds ?

I have put out all plants and decor so now the tank is complete BB , until I resolve the problem first.

3. I was thinking ways to implement your advice about the salt Dip in between my treatments Al , ,and not having the spare tank , big enough for this purpose , I came up with this idea :

On every F/MG redose, (, I got 2 -3 redoses left , ) I take out discus in a 5 gallon bucket for a salt dip while I thoroughly clean the tank glass and change 100% water and redose F/MG med(that's about 20 min procedure ).
After the short salt dip the discus go back in the same tank to an allmost 100% new water that's also already dosed with F/MG to ward them off parasites after I put them back weakened .
Do you think this would be beneficial , or if I don't have 100 % sterile and new tank , I better not perform the dips at all ?

I'm ready for 2-3 more F/MG redoses and salt dips prior every redose (if that's recomendable ??? ) and still hoping that I will get away clean out of this mess I got my self in to .

[Filip]

I've applied the third dose of F/ MG based med.(Sera Costapur ) yesterday .
I left them in a 1 hour dip / bath in a strong 5-10 folded medicine solution prior refiling the tank during the WC . Dosed the medicine full strength in only bottom filled tank with agitation , left them bathing for an hour in this strong solution and then slowly refilled the whole tank volume .

I keep the lights off during the whole treatment , except for feedings .

Their external signs of disease , I think they are all gone . White shading on the skin from shedding excess mucus is cleared , funny dots on the most affected discus from the photos vanished after one night , I think that clamping the fins is decreased to some extent too.
They do seem a little more active , at least I like think so .
But their Appetite is still weak .
They still usually have only 1decent meal per day , and skip or barely eat the rest of the meals .

I just hope I'm on the right tracks here , and was planing to finish the treatment with 5 doses(every other day as prescribed) in total .
I wonder if I should go with more than 5 doses ?
I've read that "Piscinoodinum" life cycle is approx. 14 days in discus temperatures , so shouldn't I try to cover at least 14 days dosing 7-8 doses instead of just 5 as prescribed ?

[Filip]

I have received a PM from a member with bitter past experience from this disease(Whatever it might be ), experiencing the same symptoms .

Im sharing it here with all members , and i still hope I won't have to end up with the same bitter experience as he did :



QUOTE=brwaldbaum]

Hi,

I don't seem to be able to reply to the thread mentioned above, so I decided to p.m. you. Although I don't keep discus, I experienced the exact same constellation of symptoms in my fishroom that you describe: flashing that eventually gave way to lethargy, gradual loss of interest in eating, head shaking (as though the fish were trying to dislodge something from their head or gills), a few popped scales, and white spots that looked exactly as those in the photo (amorphous, almost pus-like). Both formalin/m.g. and a series of concentrated formalin dips at 3-day intervals were ineffective. I hope you have better luck with whatever treatments you try, because this pathology wiped out my fishroom.

Brian W.

Thanks for sharing your bitter experience with me Brian . Did you find out eventually ,what was the parasite or the main cause of this symptomatology ?

Did you try something else beside Formalin/ malachite green based medications on them ?

How long did it take for this disease to wipe out your fish room ? Mine are struggling almost 2 months with it since the initial scratchings but still holding on .

And finally , what fish were affected by this dread in your fishroom ?

Sorry for all this questions , but I want to learn and gain as much experience as possible about this problem .

Cheers ,
Filip

Force-feeding antibiotics every day for 10 days resulted in a slight improvement that vanished after discontinuing treatment. I tried kanamycin for 10 days, followed by a 7 day rest, followed by another 10 days of chloramphenicol. I force fed using a syringe with the needle removed. Before antibiotics, I had tried formalin/m.g., concentrated formalin, metro, prazipro, and levamisole without any sign of improvement. The concentrated formalin baths I did as a separate treatment, but the others I tried in various combinations. I gave the fish a week's rest period between each attempt.

This pathology is sadistic because it works slowly. Once fish began to die--and it took a few months for deaths to start--I'd lose only 1 or 2 a week. Moreover, all were fish that I had owned for at least a year without signs of ill-health. They would breed regularly, and the first signs of flashing occurred in 3 month old fry.

The fish were: wild-caught Etroplus maculatus (kept in 20% marine water), wild-caught Etroplus canarensis, and a domestic variety of variatus platies. The platies and canarensis were kept together in fresh, soft water.

I recommend destroying symptomatic fish and monitoring any healthy-looking fish for several months. Before I re-started my tanks, I circulated concentrated bleach in them for 24 hours, emptied the tanks, rinsed, wiped them down with Sporicidin (a disinfectant active against mycobacteria), and rinsed again. All equipment was soaked in concentrated bleach for 24 hours. I've since had new fish in my tanks for about 6 months with no sign of recurrence, but I'm still quite anxious.

I'm really sorry you have to deal with this.[/QUOTE]

[Filip]

Just finishing the fourth dose of F/ MG dosed with a strong sol. (5-10 folded Sol.) dip for 1 hour prior refilling the tank from the 100% WC .

I'm planning to apply one more dose for total of 5 doses in a 10 day period .
Symptom are still present , more or less , and the appetite is still weak , especially on my biggest dicus , the 6 inch BD .
He still readily approaches the food willing to eat , chasing on others for food , and then just before he bites , he starts to shake his head , like trying to dislodge a bone stuck in his throat .
He still eats though but very slowly and only small bites and amount at a time .

Maybe I'm getting paranoid here and started imagining things because of over looking at them with their current problem , but I think that the BD starts to get some orange colouration / a hue , on the lateral fins and caudal fin.
Maybe I'm just starting to imagine things here , but thought it might be worth to mention that too .
Here are some pics and a video of The Biggest discus -the BD with its supposedly brown orange hue on the fins :



And some close ups :

IMG_20170923_003245.jpg

IMG_20170923_003207.jpg

[Filip]

I've finished the 5 doses (10days ) of my Formaline / malachite green treatment without any significant improvement on my discus appetite . I've bumped up the temperature to 89 F this last 5 days and that seemed to enchance their appetite to some extent .
Right now I'm dosing the tank with salt 1 TBS per gallon along with the elevated temp. 89 F .

I was thinking to give Metronidazole a try too , because their gut and their appetite are the main problem that's bothers them right now .Otherwise they do seem and act pretty healthy with just an occasional fin clamping and rare scratching .

Has anyone tried to combine salt 1 TBS per gallon along with metronidazole treatment ?
Is that a harsh combination of treatments to be administered or not ?

[brewmaster15]

Filip,
Sorry for the delay here, I have had a very long and busy few weeks and have not been online. I'm looking at the last set of pics and really see nothing wrong. They look healthy. Understand that at 89F they will breath harder, theres less oxygen in the water as you raise the temp. I would suggest not keeping it there.

The appetite... Discus can go through a period where their appetite droops off a bit..its usually around the 4 inch range...so what you are seeing there is possibly normal. They also may not like the food. Beefheart mixes can go bad, or loose their attractiveness to the fish and the fish can get spoiled on other foods like Blood worms.

I was thinking to give Metronidazole a try too , because their gut and their appetite are the main problem that's bothers them right now

I would not. You havent reported any abnormal feces here, You have already used a substantial amount of medications, Its best to let them recover. I would also discontinue the salt you are using.


Are the dots gone here...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attach...6&d=1505433181


I would try fasting the fish for a few days and then attempting new foods..

Otherwise they do seem and act pretty healthy with just an occasional fin clamping and rare scratching

If you really want to knock this out consider the salt dips ..you can do them in plastic buckets and rubbe rmaid storage type bins.. a tank isn't necessary.

hth,
al

[Filip]

Thanks for the advice's Al.

Ive had a little "Miricle " happened to me yesterday and that changed my course of thinking and further acting .

Yesterday during the change of water I only left 1/4 of the water volume and dosed the whole 1tbs per gallon amount . I left them in this 3-4 TBS per galon (almost half a cup per gallon )solution for 20-30 min before refilling the whole volume .
The results were amazing 2 hours after this salt dip performed in the same tank .
They ate their BH like I've never seen them this last 2 months . half of them got their bellies rounded like in the good old days , and the other half ate good as well .

Whaterver they are dealing with , compromising their appetite , I think is very intolerant of Salt dips , from what I've seen yesterday .

That encouraged me to listen to your original advice and go through the whole " dreaded procedure " of multiple salt dips with sterilizing everything between them .

Right now I've just finished the salt dip 2% in a 5 gallon bucket for 10 min. Until they started to roll over and now they are recovering in my sterile 20 gallon tank .
Meanwhile, while they are in my 20 gallon Tank , ive pour PP at 80 ppm per gallon (20 ppm per liter ) and let the filters and equipment running in my BB display tank in order to sterilize everything there .

Since 20 Gallon is extremely small vol. for 11 5inch discus and I'm scared "Poop"-less leaving them there longer than 12 hours , I will take them back in my sterilized display tank TONIGHT right after another salt dip .

The only think that I'm not certain is will 20 PPM of PP for a couple of hours kill those "nuclear bomb resistant " parasite eggs and properly sterilize my display tank and equipment ?
Is 20 Ppm PP running for a couple of hours enough for total sterilization ?

I will also start lowering the temps and salt levels to normal between the dips , just like you've said .

If there is anything else worth mentioning for this multiple salt dip / sterilize method that I started performing please share it too Al .


Thanks Al and keep your fingers crossed for me .

[brewmaster15]

Filip,

The only think that I'm not certain is will 20 PPM of PP for a couple of hours kill those "nuclear bomb resistant " parasite eggs and properly sterilize my display tank and equipment ?
Is 20 Ppm PP running for a couple of hours enough for total sterilization ?

Its hard to say here...but hopefully. Generally I use bleach when trying to clean a problem in a tank.. whether its bleach or 20PPM potassium permanganate, the biofilter will be gone. so be prepared for many daily water changes as the tank cycles.

hth.
al

[Filip]

I'm prepared for starting from Zip 0 and changing 100ts daily Al .
I was just hesitant about using bleach because its so sticky and I was not certain it will totaly neutralize from the tank in just a couple of hours till tonight after the wipedowns and WC .
With the colour of the PP I'm more convenient that the tank will be Completely PP - less until tonight and I won't poison my fish , as with bleach .

After the response from discus I got after yesterday's salt dip I just hope that I'm on the right track with this method .