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Thread: A word about protein...

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    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default A word about protein...

    Often times we look at the nutritional profile of a fishfood and use the short analysis there as a guide to if its a good fishfood.The value you see mentioned most is protein.For discus a high protein food of 50-60% is an accepted standard . Being busy hobbyists many often stop at that point and dont consider what the protein is? That 50-60%protein really is meant as a starting point for inquiry...not an end all. The kind of protein matters. Protein is made up of amino acids and not all protein as the same value to an organism. Some proteins are excellent for growth and development. Others not so great. Some are easily digested and converted to useful components. Others not so much or at all. The harder it is to digest the protein the more energy is used in the process. The wrong proteins can actually impair growth and development.

    Fishfood can be made from many ingredients that will bump up their protein content. Its best to read the labels past the brief summary and consider what all the ingredients are. Not only will you be feeding your fish better but your water quality will improve. Poor quality feeds tend to be messier and the fish will produce more waste.


    ......Just some food for thought.
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 10-21-2017 at 01:23 PM.
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    Registered Member bluelagoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: A word about protein...

    Question?Since beef heart is mammal protein and is messy and tends to decrease water quality.Would that be less of a protein than protein from fish and insects?I do know that chicken feathers are 90% protein;is this the kind of protein your talking about?
    Last edited by bluelagoon; 10-21-2017 at 10:28 AM.

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    Default Re: A word about protein...

    HI Mervin,
    Chicken feathers..also known as feather meal is a good example. Its protein but not very useful or easy to digest. More of a filler. Corn and wheat can also add protein. Peas are used but thats not a bad supplimental protein source and has other good value.
    Soy is a very common one.. Theres a study that was done a few years ago that showed a little soy was not bad but as the percent increased it adversely affected discus growth.

    Aquatic organisms are a good source of protein as one would expect but even with something like an insect some are better digested than others. Some bloodworm larvae are easily digested some though the exoskeleton is not digested.. its passed out. Thats lost protein.

    Mammalian proteins are largely similar in composition amino acid wise to fish but obviously their are differences. There is also a large difference in the fat and lipid profile between aquatic and mammalian sources. Discus do grow well on both as evidenced by many hobbyist and hatcheries.
    Hth,
    AL
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 10-21-2017 at 11:17 AM.
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    Default Re: A word about protein...

    Hi Al,

    Im thinking about this for many days but i'm not able to get clear picture about the protein requirement.

    The link i attached is USDA nutrition data of beef heart raw

    https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/s...a=&qn=&q=&ing=

    It Clearly states protein content in 100 gram heart is 17.7 gram.

    Beef heart is one of the highest form of meat than others.

    So even if we feed raw beef heart also the protein content cant reach 45 - 50% required for the Juvinilles.

    How to calculate exactly the nutritional content in our fish food. Can any expert explain me.


    Regards,

    S.Vasanth

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    Registered Member Paul Sabucchi's Avatar
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    Default Re: A word about protein...

    Is beef heart used mostly for the good cost/protein ratio? Even the most protein rich cuts of meet or fish struggle or fail to reach 30%. So is the high protein content of granular fish food due to the fact it is dehydrated? I wonder if there is any difference in the growth ratio of discus fed on fresh fish (that is what I am doing) and those fed on similar fish but dehydrated and hence "concentrated"?

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    Default Re: A word about protein...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasanthintel View Post
    Hi Al,

    Im thinking about this for many days but i'm not able to get clear picture about the protein requirement.

    The link i attached is USDA nutrition data of beef heart raw

    https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/s...a=&qn=&q=&ing=

    It Clearly states protein content in 100 gram heart is 17.7 gram.

    Beef heart is one of the highest form of meat than others.

    So even if we feed raw beef heart also the protein content cant reach 45 - 50% required for the Juvinilles.

    How to calculate exactly the nutritional content in our fish food. Can any expert explain me.


    Regards,

    S.Vasanth
    The problem here is the values are for Raw Beefheart ... Full Report (All Nutrients): 13321, Beef, variety meats and by-products, heart, raw Raw contains water that will affect your protein amount. Fishfood analysis is done in dry weight. Its the only way to make nutritional comparisons that are relevent to one another as water in food will always vary. You need to look for a protein analysis of freeze dried beefheart if you really want hard protein numbers. People that feed homemade beefheart do have to feed more than those that feed freeze dried foods or pellets , flakes etc, to feed a comparable amount of protein if you are looking at wet weight vs dry weight but generally fish will eat plenty of protein even if its wet homemade food as long as they given enough to eat. I don't think anyone that makes a homemade beefheart, turkey or even seafood mix will have a lack of protein in the fishes Diet,

    hth,
    al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 10-25-2017 at 03:14 PM.
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    Default Re: A word about protein...

    Al,

    I understand this point that they mention water content in beef heart.

    What homemade food made of?

    Just it is cleaned frozen heart.

    If it is frozen, water content may get away. But once taken out of freezer again it condense the air and regain the water content.

    So when fish eat them in water, they will be like same beef heart before frozen.

    So ultimately the nutrition value must be same as mentioned in USDA.

    Fishfood analysis is made on dry weight basis but when the fish feeds them, it will be in wet condition only.

    It s not better to consider nutritional value when we store it comparing the value while fish feeds it.

    I also accepts that practically the protein requirement matches the requirement but i don't know correct way to derive that theoretically.

    If any experts have idea on this pls help. Because simply i'm making the food without understanding the fish exact requirement.

    Regards,

    Vasanth

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    Registered Member Paul Sabucchi's Avatar
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    Default Re: A word about protein...

    I think you are asking the $64.000 question. As I see it the bulk of the information we have about discus nutrition is the practical observations of the fishkeepers who have been there and done it before us. The academic studies either concern the diet of discus in their natural environment (mostly feeding on detritus with a protein content way lower than in any of our fish food - fresh or dry) or if in laboratory condition the effect on growth is evaluated over a short period of time at the very early stages of growth but what would be the long term effect of that trial? Also there is the issue of what the "ideal" diet should achieve: maximum growth? best morphology? Longevity? Good health?

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