Broken thread - remaking it. Discus are all stressed, all showing different symptoms.

[ripa89]

Problem

I am aware of several mistakes I have made or had been making. I am open to any constructive criticism or ideas to get things back on track.

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Various Discus becoming very dark, reclusive, and lethargic. One recently treated for Hexamita, and another for Fin Rot in a Quarantine Tank. 7 in total. 3 Seem to be mostly healthy (colorful and eating some) But still very skittish. When filling a jar to thaw their food I used to have to fight them away from going into the jar, they would be that excited to eat, as well as follow me around wherever I went in the room. Now they are terrified most of the time I approach the tank. The other discus are very dark in color most of the time, and rarely expose themselves in the open. However every now and then they will emerge, though slowly, and show signs of their normal color returning. They are very limited in eating, only when the food floats right in front of them do they really show interest.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Turning dark, very limited eating. Clamped fins, darting most of the times I approach the tank. Hiding most of the time. Small white pimple on 2 of them (see pictured provided)

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

None in the main tank.
Treated a Blue Cobalt in a QT, until he showed great signs of improvement.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

125 Gallon.
7 various Discus, 3.5 - 5 inches.
6 Cardinal Tetras
6 Rummynose Tetras
2 silver Hatchet fish
2 Burmese Border Loaches
5 Singapore Flower Shrimp
3 Clown Loaches (for controlling snail outbreak)
4 Corys

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

In the last 10 days I have increased water changes to ~30% every day or other day, I was doing 40% once a week before.
I had also been siphoning the gravel all along, but recently learned not properly. Yesterday I thoroughly vacuumed all of the gravel all the way through to the glass until nowhere in the tank did anything but clear water come up.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

It has been running about 6.5 months, with 2 inches of a combination of black and red Flora-max mixed with small natural colored pebbles. I am switching to PFS soon

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

No

8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp 85.2F

- ph 6.6

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading Less than 5

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water 100%

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

Not within the last 2 months.

10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Dry food in the morning and at night - A mix of Ocean Nutrition Reef Flakes, Freeze Dried Blood Worms, Hikari discus Bio-gold pellets
In the afternoon I feed Omega One frozen Blood worms and brine srimp (thawed)

Side note: I had a lot of personal things going on and over the course of a month was not able to clean the tank as often and as well as I should have - although everything seemed healthy during that time. Could this all be a result of that finally catching up? or could it be something worse.

11. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.All hiding.jpgIMG_6634 (2).jpgMarlboro white spots.jpgred turq 2.jpgRed Turq.jpg

[bluelagoon]

The WC's you are doing are not big enough for discus to keep the water pristine enough to thrive.A lot of issues pop up with plants and substrate;to the eye your tank appears dirty to me.Since the plants all look like hair algae,you should remove then all.That way you can really clean the substrate.Lots of nastys under them.I'm not sure if it's bacterial or protozoan.Malachite green and formalin are great for protozoan,is good for some bacteria but not all species.I've had great success with Furan 2 for bacteria.If you can age your water that would be best when doing lets say 80% WC's.You should treat all you fish at once and not recross contaminate them.And their tank.

[bluelagoon]

Also,Loaches,some corys and shrimp do not far well with treatments.

[ripa89]

The WC's you are doing are not big enough for discus to keep the water pristine enough to thrive.A lot of issues pop up with plants and substrate;to the eye your tank appears dirty to me.Since the plants all look like hair algae,you should remove then all.That way you can really clean the substrate.Lots of nastys under them.I'm not sure if it's bacterial or protozoan.Malachite green and formalin are great for protozoan,is good for some bacteria but not all species.I've had great success with Furan 2 for bacteria.If you can age your water that would be best when doing lets say 80% WC's.You should treat all you fish at once and not recross contaminate them.And their tank.

Thank you for your input.

I do have a few questions and comments. First of all - I decided to raise the temperature from 85.2F to 89.2F and I have noticed a bit of an increase in overall health for 5 out of 6 of the discus in my main tank. They are less skittish/reclusive, showing better colors, and were very excited for food this afternoon.
I have also recently removed a significant amount of my plants due to the algae taking over, the remaining plants I plan on doing a 3 day blackout once my quarantine tank is free. This past weekend I did a very thorough vacuum on 100% of my substrate - even through the roots of the plants.

My question would be which I should treat for first - Bacterial or Protozoan? My concern with treating my entire main tank with Furan 2 is the risk of damaging my beneficial bacteria and having the tank crash.
I have read that Metro (API General cure) is an anti Protozoan and will not have any effect on my beneficial bacteria. Would you recommend I treat with that first?
Or do recommend that I treat for a bacterial infection right away. And if so, do you have any recommendations on how to treat the entire tank with anti bacterial medication?
I do have another tank that I could place my inverts and loaches and such during treatment.

Thanks again, and I look forward to hearing back from you.

[Ryan925]

Have you considered just starting with increased, large was? Have you noticed any sign of illness other than just dark color, lack of appetite and zits?

You may just be seeing the results of poor tank maintenance which zits are usually a good indicator of.

I've used furan 2 in the past with no ill effects on my bio filter. If I'm not mistaken general cure is a mix of metro and furan 2...although I'm no expert on meds

[ripa89]

I did wonder if it was all just from poor tank maintenance for a little while. However I would hate to hope on that, and only let the problem get worse - if it was something more than that.

[Ryan925]

I did wonder if it was all just from poor tank maintenance for a little while. However I would hate to hope on that, and only let the problem get worse - if it was something more than that.

It's quite common to see things turn around quite quickly with improved water quality. To me if you start a medical treatment you may not see results as you may be treating the wrong potential ailment without symptoms to go off of. Again I am no expert when it comes to meds.

If it were my tank I would start with the wcs since that is a known issue. Can you do 50% of more daily? I see your tank has a lower ph. What is the ph of your tap? If there is a big difference you don't want to add more stress for them hence the recommendation of aging by Mervin

[ripa89]

It's quite common to see things turn around quite quickly with improved water quality. To me if you start a medical treatment you may not see results as you may be treating the wrong potential ailment without symptoms to go off of. Again I am no expert when it comes to meds.

If it were my tank I would start with the wcs since that is a known issue. Can you do 50% of more daily? I see your tank has a lower ph. What is the ph of your tap? If there is a big difference you don't want to add more stress for them hence the recommendation of aging by Mervin

I have increased water changes since all of this started, I learned that I was not doing them nearly often enough. I can do 50% daily or every other day. My tap water is usually 7.2pH - 7.4pH. The breeder I bought my Discus from keeps them at a lower pH, that is why I lower it. I can look into being able to age my water, but my current living situation will make it quite difficult. What I am doing now to keep it low is measure and correct the pH shortly after refilling after my water changes. I use a product called 'Kent Marine pH Control Minus'.

[Ryan925]

I have increased water changes since all of this started, I learned that I was not doing them nearly often enough. I can do 50% daily or every other day. My tap water is usually 7.2pH - 7.4pH. The breeder I bought my Discus from keeps them at a lower pH, that is why I lower it. I can look into being able to age my water, but my current living situation will make it quite difficult. What I am doing now to keep it low is measure and correct the pH shortly after refilling after my water changes. I use a product called 'Kent Marine pH Control Minus'.

I think usually the general consensus is that a stable ph is less stressful to your fish than ph altering chemicals.

Aging water is to avoid ph swing and adding your ph chemical is actually creating a large ph swing

Many of us have our fish in the upper 7s and even some above 8

Your increased wcs are improving water quality but may also be adding stress with the changes in ph

[ripa89]

I think usually the general consensus is that a stable ph is less stressful to your fish than ph altering chemicals.

Aging water is to avoid ph swing and adding your ph chemical is actually creating a large ph swing

Many of us have our fish in the upper 7s and even some above 8

Your increased wcs are improving water quality but may also be adding stress with the changes in ph

How long would a swing in pH take to have an effect on the fish? If the pH is slightly higher for only a few minutes would that be long enough to have a negative effect on them?
My concern is that they have been raised, and kept in that pH for their entire lives, so would it harm them to change it now?

[Ryan925]

How long would a swing in pH take to have an effect on the fish? If the pH is slightly higher for only a few minutes would that be long enough to have a negative effect on them?
My concern is that they have been raised, and kept in that pH for their entire lives, so would it harm them to change it now?

I would say think of it this way. Importers ship their fish all over the country to a wide range of ph. Domestic discus can adapt to a large range of ph. Consistency is key

[ripa89]

I would say think of it this way. Importers ship their fish all over the country to a wide range of ph. Domestic discus can adapt to a large range of ph. Consistency is key

Do you recommend I slowly raise it to what my tap pH usually is?

[bluelagoon]

When you add ph up and ph down products,you'll be putting more stress on the discus.Throw it out.If your issue is bacterial ,you don't increase the temp;it'll speed the infection up.
At post #5::General Cure is metronidazole and praziquantel.Metro is an antibiotic and anti protozoan.The prazi part of the med would be for worms and flukes.

[ripa89]

I will begin phasing out the pH alternating chemicals while slowly adjusting tank to be the same as the tap.

Do you recommend treating entire tank with General Cure now based on the pictures and information provided? Or would it be worth it to wait?

[bluelagoon]

If they were my discus,I would try the MG&F first.It might knock the filter back and is hard on plants.Make sure lights are off during any treatments.If no improvements in 2-3 days,I'd go with the Furan2 and raise the temp and had an air stone.It looks like it's getting kinda late and time is ticking;you need to do something.