Fish priced into oblivion and out of the hobby

[ssevasta]

I don’t know if I’m the only one that feels this way but I personally feel that when fish such as certain plecos or other rare fish cost upwards of $200 each for juveniles that it’s bad for the hobby. I know that in certain cases where it takes six months to a year for a fish to reach a sellable size that it also affects the price. However I think that greed is also at play in many situations because for example it isn’t any more difficult or time consuming to breed and raise leopard frog plecos than it is to raise zebras but on average Zebras cost four times the price. I’ve recently been trying to buy a group of juvenile or adult zebras and the prices have ranged between $125-$225+ per juvenile fish at the same size. The prices for adult sexable mature fish go from $250-300+. The fact that there’s such a wide range in pricing goes to show that markup on these fish is very excessive. I understand that you have to put a price on the two to three years it takes for one of these fish to reach sexual maturity or small clutches of 10-15 fry but nobody is raising just one fish in a tank either and the same can be said for other species that aren’t nearly as expensive. It’s the common consensus amongst pleco breeders that there are way more people breeding zebras than there are leopard frogs and both fish come from the Xingu River in Brazil which is currently being destroyed by the Belo Monte Dam project. Supply and demand can dictate a price to a certain extent based on what people are willing to pay but you also see the worst elements of human nature and greed on sites like aquabid where someone will ask for $399 for a juveile 1.5 inch zebra pleco. I know this has been a kinda long rant but I’m sure many other hobbyists here probably feel the same way. The whole reason I wanted to get the zebras in the first place was to breed them and have them locally available to friends and forum members at a fair price. I feel like a lot of these breeders are afraid that someone is just going to buy their fish at a fair price and then turn around to post them on aquabid for 2-3x the cost. Nobody wants to be taken advantage of so they raise their prices too and it hurts everyone involved. The one breeder that was willing to sell me some juveiles for a reasonable price lives almost 8 hours away and isn’t willing to ship them, honestly I can’t blame him though because if I were him I would probably want to meet my customers in person first too. It’s a sad day in the zebra pleco market and our shrinking hobby in general

[White Worm]

Prices for fish in a glass box to look at are too high in general. It's not like these animals are driving me to work, signing my paycheck or paying my bills. For instance, $600 for a pair of discus? Even if you are able to breed them, it would take you some serious time to ever recoup your money if it happened at all. I mean really...they are fish. And, like you said, breeders are not just raising 1 fish. I could understand if someone raised 1 fish for a year and then sold it. I guess you need to consider the cost of a "HOBBY" before you get one. Demand always drives greed. Look at the recent natural disasters. Do you think construction companies are cutting people deals or raking them over the coals because they can and know that people are desperate (Demand)? Insurance companies are shorting all of these people because they are greedy. What politicians aren't destroying, mother nature is. This world is going to $h!t. How's that for an escalated rant......lol.

[Adam S]

Just a clarification before any opinionated stuff: L134 comes from the Rio Tapajos, not the Rio Xingu. Both are currently under threat of damn installation.

Anyways, I guess I don't see the issue. $125-$150 for a 6 month old L46 is a "fair" price. $300-$500 for a sexed 3, year old L46 is a "fair" price. People without aquariums will call it stupid, Asian pleco nuts will ask where and how many they can buy. L134 adults used to be $30-$40, now smaller fish are double that. L260 is more demanding and harder to spawn than L46 at 1/3 the price. L173 is marginally different than L46, but you can buy a zebra colony for the cost of one L173. The list goes on. Luckily, for the people selling $400 zebra juvies, L46 can live well over 20 years.

[CANAMONSTER]

Agreed, hobby is getting way out of hand. I think people have big credit lines which helps keep prices high but I have resorted going back to good old fun commons

[LizStreithorst]

The price of Angels isn't that high, you know. If you breed good, sought after strains there is a market if only on Aquabid. That's not to say that you'll make money but it puts a dent in your costs. Fish breeding is a hobby, after all. Only fools think they can make money doing it. Discus are the worst. Nobody can compete consistently, month after month of the price, variety, and quality of the imposts.

[Willie]

There was a time when discus was $25@. Of course the only ones you could buy then were 2" cobalts or turqs. No one has to buy $250 slabs or $600 pairs. Why would anyone sell anything at below market prices?

Willie

[Altum Nut]

I think I mentioned price point expected when I replied to your other thread. Steve...the way I see it the price point is determined by what the buyer is willing to pay. If I'm correct...I have heard Show Quality Discus in Asia that can go for $10,000 ea. and Arowana's that go for 5 or 6 times that.
I was at a friends on the weekend and he is breeding L134, L46, L183 and recently the sought after L236 and who knows what else.
I remember back in the early 1990's you can get an adult L46 Zebra for $20.
I simply say stop paying and the price will go down.

...Ralph

[ssevasta]

There was a time when discus was $25@. Of course the only ones you could buy then were 2" cobalts or turqs. No one has to buy $250 slabs or $600 pairs. Why would anyone sell anything at below market prices?

Willie

That’s my point. It’s hurting the hobby that the price is keeping certain people out of it for financial reasons rather than an interest and love for the hobby of fish keeping/breeding etc.

[ssevasta]

Just a clarification before any opinionated stuff: L134 comes from the Rio Tapajos, not the Rio Xingu. Both are currently under threat of damn installation.

Anyways, I guess I don't see the issue. $125-$150 for a 6 month old L46 is a "fair" price. $300-$500 for a sexed 3, year old L46 is a "fair" price. People without aquariums will call it stupid, Asian pleco nuts will ask where and how many they can buy. L134 adults used to be $30-$40, now smaller fish are double that. L260 is more demanding and harder to spawn than L46 at 1/3 the price. L173 is marginally different than L46, but you can buy a zebra colony for the cost of one L173. The list goes on. Luckily, for the people selling $400 zebra juvies, L46 can live well over 20 years.

Adam if the range of your pricing on adults was for proven sexed fish that were 100% the sex that the seller claimed I might not be quite as bothered by it but a lot of the time the buyer doesn’t really know 100%. As far as I’m concerned if it’s not a proven pair that’s spawned before, the pricing should be much cheaper because it might not be a pair or one of the fish could be infertile. The uncertainty is what bothers me when the prices are so high, with discus we usually buy at least six fish to hope we end up with a pair or two forming. Doing that and waiting two to three years with Zebras is a huge investment of time and substantial amount of money too. I think i’d want to buy at least ten if not fifteen juveniles if I was going to be waiting three years. I don’t know the odds, but it seems almost impossible to not have a decent mix in such a large group.

[Ryan925]

That’s my point. It’s hurting the hobby that the price is keeping certain people out of it for financial reasons rather than an interest and love for the hobby of fish keeping/breeding etc.

Supply and demand etc, etc, etc

There are many hobbies that people cannot afford. It does not mean that hobby should have to adjust it's rates accordingly.

[ssevasta]

Supply and demand etc, etc, etc

There are many hobbies that people cannot afford. It does not mean that hobby should have to adjust it's rates accordingly.

You just don’t get it.

[Adam S]

L236

Maybe the "hybrid" thing isn't an issue with discus and other reasonable folks, but that's a scary term around some catfish fanatics.

Adam if the range of your pricing on adults was for proven sexed fish that were 100% the sex that the seller claimed I might not be quite as bothered by it but a lot of the time the buyer doesn’t really know 100%. As far as I’m concerned if it’s not a proven pair that’s spawned before, the pricing should be much cheaper because it might not be a pair or one of the fish could be infertile. The uncertainty is what bothers me when the prices are so high, with discus we usually buy at least six fish to hope we end up with a pair or two forming. Doing that and waiting two to three years with Zebras is a huge investment of time and substantial amount of money too. I think i’d want to buy at least ten if not fifteen juveniles if I was going to be waiting three years. I don’t know the odds, but it seems almost impossible to not have a decent mix in such a large group.

Mature fish (over 3 years of age) can be reliably sexed by venting. If your vendor cannot/is unwilling to do this AND send quality pictures for your confirmation, move on. I passed on 2 extremely fair deals and spent 3 years before finding the group I have now. Otherwise, juveniles are great option if you have the patience.

You just don’t get it.

Guess I don't get it either. There are plenty of cheap fish and equipment options that satisfy the need of putting wildlife in a box. If you feel the prices of some fish are unjustified for the wrong reasons (greed, paranoia, etc.), fair enough, but I think it's unfair to say it's deterring people from being part of the hobby. It's pay to play like anything else.

[Ryan925]

You just don’t get it.

Na I do get it seems you are not getting it

Maybe the "hybrid" thing isn't an issue with discus and other reasonable folks, but that's a scary term around some catfish fanatics.


Mature fish (over 3 years of age) can be reliably sexed by venting. If your vendor cannot/is unwilling to do this AND send quality pictures for your confirmation, move on. I passed on 2 extremely fair deals and spent 3 years before finding the group I have now. Otherwise, juveniles are great option if you have the patience.


Guess I don't get it either. There are plenty of cheap fish and equipment options that satisfy the need of putting wildlife in a box. If you feel the prices of some fish are unjustified for the wrong reasons (greed, paranoia, etc.), fair enough, but I think it's unfair to say it's deterring people from being part of the hobby. It's pay to play like anything else.

Great points made here

[Second Hand Pat]

I have deleted last several posts. The posts were getting off topic and way too personal. As a heads up PMs are a great tool here.
Pat

[Fishquake]

Fish are a commodity, as such, their price is market driven. If a buyer is willing to pay a price that's may "appear" excessive than its only excessive to those who are unwilling or unable to meet that price point. If the seller cannot sell his product at the price he has assigned, then he will need to adjust it downward to make the product more attractive to the buyer. In some cases this downward trend could leave breeders and distributors to exit the production of a particular variety or species and seek a fish that offers greater profit margin. How about a $60,000 dollar Koi?