Fish priced into oblivion and out of the hobby

[Clawhammer]

Check out the threads about how it is impossible to turn a profit breeding and you will better understand the baseline cost. The high costs are exacerbated by the difficulty in shipping live animals that live in water. Premium fish are priced higher because the market has determined that is what they are worth (supply / demand). It is as simple as that. Wishing they were cheaper doesn't change the cost structure or the market dynamics.

[ssevasta]

I think several posters here seem to have the assumption that I don’t understand market dynamics, this is not the case. All I am trying to say is that it’s unfortunate that cost has become a prohibitive bar to entry for a lot of people. In my personal opinion, that isn’t good for any particular species that we raise. The $60,000 Koi or $10,000 show winning Discus aren’t great examples because they don’t represent average fish or the cost of an average fish within their species market. Like anything else that takes a lot of time and dedication people like to feel that they accomplished something and it appears that certain people seem to get more of a rise from it when they can say well my fish cost “$$$” insert high figure. Not to mention if greed had nothing to do with it then the fish on aquabid’s prices would be much closer to what a hobbyist breeder would charge for an F1 or F2 juvenile.

[Phillydubs]

I wasn't going to comment because I feel this thread is going no where and I knew when I read the initial post that this was more of a vent than anything else... That being said, it is really coming off as you hitting a hurdle to get a specific type of fish and blaming the market or the hobby...?

There are how many types of pleccos? Thousands? I get that you are into one type and naturally we as humans are drawn to the best of the best... That being said, take any hobby, any collector... There are levels... I like Air Jordans... If I get a pair retail as soon as they come out they can be $220, aftermarket that can double, tipple, quadruple... Going to a forum to express dismay in the hobby is not stopping Joe Jordan from jacking his rates or getting what he can get for them... Some may say Nike is a rip and wont even pay the $220... I know guys who stopped w sneakers all together to "boycott" nike... You know what, nike pumps them out at a more rapid rate for higher prices and those dudes just dont have cool jordans anymore...

THE MACHINE DOESN'T SLOW DOWN FOR ANYONE!!!!!!

Liz was just here telling us all that she has to literally cull hundreds of perfectly fine angel fish because she has no where for them and no one to buy them... She kills them... If she was breeding some rare color variant, she could sell them by the drove for $100 a pop, instead, the demand isn't there and they die...

The plecco's you happen to like are high in demand, people can get the price they ask for them, so they do it...

We all have levels of entry and put a ceiling on what we can or will spend on something, based on our income, family, etc... I want a ferarri... I drive a toyota and prob never will drive a ferarri... I can go to a ferrari message board and tell them that the high price for their machines keeps interested lovers of their craft away... They are not dropping that price now or ever...

It may be a tough pill to swallow and not the answer you want to hear but sometimes we have to face the truth and accept what is there because it is what it is until it isn't anymore...

[Altum Nut]

Sean...as you speak it is unfortunate that cost has become a prohibitive bar to entry for a lot of people.
I myself cannot afford the many offerings our Sponsors carry under the Jumbo or Select but as hobbyist we make do with what we can afford with buying juveniles as the next possible resort and who knows may turn out into a Jumbo or Select caliber Discus or Pleco.

I like this topic so any additional replies should be remain civil and related to the topic without any bashing.

Cheers,
...Ralph

[ssevasta]

Sean...as you speak it is unfortunate that cost has become a prohibitive bar to entry for a lot of people.
I myself cannot afford the many offerings our Sponsors carry under the Jumbo or Select but as hobbyist we make do with what we can afford with buying juveniles as the next possible resort and who knows may turn out into a Jumbo or Select caliber Discus or Pleco.

I like this topic so any additional replies should be remain civil and related to the topic without any bashing.

Cheers,
...Ralph

Yea I’ve clearly articulated my position on this as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps when I get my group, which I will, it will become evident that my personal financial situation has nothing to do with how I feel about this. Like I said in the beginning of the thread, nobody wants to be taken for a fool or overcharged. Caveat Emptor right?

[Second Hand Pat]

Yea I’ve clearly articulated my position on this as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps when I get my group, which I will, it will become evident that my personal financial situation has nothing to do with how I feel about this. Like I said in the beginning of the thread, nobody wants to be taken for a fool or overcharged. Caveat Emptor right?

And why being patient and doing your research will hopefully bear fruit in the end. My dad has a saying and it applies here "It is what it is". Good luck in your search Sean.
Pat

[Adam S]

My last post on this unless someone mentions another pleco.

In my opinion, there is nothing foolish or overcharged about the L46. Collectors have to dive in excess of 50 ft in pitch black water with currents strong enough to sweep people away and kill them. Then, they have to be smuggled out of the country (these have not been legal to export for some time now, and are now illegal to even collect) in tiny bags and shipped to the desired country. Mortality rates are very high. Then, the hobbyists come into play. If it's anything like discus, I'm sure a fair number of hobbyists botch their first attempt and probably kill them off doing something stupid like RO, pH manipulation or something "natural." The hobbyists that keep them alive then have to hope that they have both sexes (males and females get exported, but not always to the same places) and are able to provide the conditions that convince the alpha male to spawn. With some skill and luck, the hobbyist then has to raise batches of 1-15 fry for a minimum 6 months, allowing space for growout, time for maintenance and hopefully dodging disease, power outages, source water fluctuations, equipment failure (heaters, silicone, dropping things, etc.), overly generous feeders (who do not always ask to feed the fish), random contaminants, changes in employment, natural disasters, family emergencies and overly violent males. I'm sure there are more ways to kill fish, but those were what occurred to me now.

I do think that $1200 for 6 captive bred juvies is cost prohibitive in the same way any luxury or profession-grade equipment is in any other hobby. Give all of the above, I think the prices I previously stated are "fair" and what should be expected for zebras.

[ssevasta]

And why being patient and doing your research will hopefully bear fruit in the end. My dad has a saying and it applies here "It is what it is". Good luck in your search Sean.
Pat

Thanks Pat. Also Adam, I appreciate all of the interesting information you’ve shared with all of us.

[CANAMONSTER]

No one has mentioned the increase of wealth in Asian countries which are a major factor in high fish prices. They love their fish and have lots of money so that sets a bar. All the very expensive rare fish that vendors sell , Asian market gets first crack at it. Why cause they buy and pay. If north America won't pay high prices then we don't get to see all those rare beautiful stuff . North American is a small market compared to Asia in my opinion.

[Phillydubs]

The Market Dictates itself...

I believe someone here said it already, but if consumers stopped buying, you'd see how quick the price would fall, but that is not happening.

Whether you have the $ or don't, like it or don't, want them or don't. The market set's it self based on what people are willing to pay for what is out there...

I could see if we were singling out a seller per say who was price gouging or trying to monopolize the hobby. But it seems as if the rates are rather consistent across the board...

Not to mention Mr. Adam makes some damn amazing points about collection and all that...

[Jack L]

interesting thread, related to this cost/fish topic....on netflix, watch monster fish, there is an episode where he goes to asia, the obsession and $$$ spent on carp..wow...see what you think

[Fishquake]

There are additional costs for importing the fish before it can be distributed. You need an import license, you have to pay fish and wild life fees, taxes, vet fee from breeder, and shipping which can easily match the price of the imported fish, so you need to order a sizeable amount and have the capacity and resources to maintain the animals before sale. The list goes on, but everyone wants a piece of the pie.

[bluelagoon]

It's all in what one can afford or willing to dish out.I personally cannot afford buying fish at my LPS.The prices are too steep for my pockets.I can get them from a supplier and pay for shipping and still save money in the long run.I think $5-$7 for a common tetra,$40 Canadian for 2" severum,plus 15% taxes is a bit much for me,but with someone with money to spare would not be an issue.It's becoming a very expensive hobby.

[brewmaster15]

Glad to see Pat and Ralph Jumping in and trying to keep this thread civil. I know at times we just don't like something someone says...or how they say it. Its easy to take it to a personal level.... when that happens , its best to take it private. Discuss it, and if you can't come to an understanding, add the person to your ignore list both on the forums software and in your head.. End of of the Day its a Fish we are talking about.

I will share my experience with Zebra plecos... I was selling wild discus at the time zebras were going on the do not export list. My discus supplier offered me 3 cases, each case contained 30-40 zebra plecos.... at something like a whopping $35 per piece. I passed. I did not have a love of plecos and that was alot of money I could have bought discus with. which is what I did. I regret that I lacked the foresight to see where the Zebras were headed pricewise. I wish I had I should have bought them and bred them! If I did and still had them, I would be selling them at Market Prices too....what ever that maybe. If a fish is priced too high it will not sell. If the fish sells...its at market price or below. This is how everything works and for good reason with the fish.


With Regards to Discus....Until you have actually tried importing, selling , and breeding something rare, its hard to understand the pitfalls you face. The costs and risks. Ask anyone here thats lost their hatchery and been wiped out once or twice. The guys that sell at a discount never survive the first time that happens. If you don't have reserves, you can't start up again ..you are done. I have seen so many come and go over my time in the hobby. I cringe when I see sellers importing discus and selling them on the cheap, below market value.. often the quality is sub par and the health is questionable.. They are fly by nighters, and will fail the first hardship they face but in the process they destabilize the market. Many of you have seen these sellers... They bring in a shipment from someone, sell it off and then disappear into the cyberwood works. The net result is it gets harder and harder to find good discus sellers that have staying power. This may not seem like a problem, as there will always be another Fly by nighter but it hurts the hobby. The good sellers that have been doing this years build solid relationships with their suppliers. That translates to healthy quality stock being sent to them and theres an incentive for the exporter to supply novel strains as well. Its what raises the bar in our hobby. Yes it comes at a price.... but most good things do. Unfortunately we don't always recognize the price that comes with cheap fish until its too late.



One other comment, I know that fish can be expensive and I have spent insane amounts on them when I could but If finances arent there for the expensive ones theres a bazillion other options. My problem is theres so many fish I would like to keep but I have no room. I am always playing with something different besides Discus or expensive what evers like my newest Leopard Frog Pleco splurge. Even my recent common albino plecos are a blast to keep and breed and they are cheap! But if you can't find an inexpensive species to play with, you honestly aren't looking .. It overwhelms me how many cool cheap fish there are.. both in the Pet trade and in native waters. Price isnt the reason the hobby has declined.... nor is availability of cool fish. Its just that People don't keep Fish like they used to and don't pass that passion on to their kids...that breaks the chain.. Not the prices.


just my ramblings,
al

[ssevasta]

Maybe the "hybrid" thing isn't an issue with discus and other reasonable folks, but that's a scary term around some catfish fanatics.

Adam which fish would be considered a hybrid and why?