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Thread: Discus Slime Coat - Help diagnosing microscope video

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Discus Slime Coat - Help diagnosing microscope video

    I like the idea of the dip. Maybe after a couple days of rest another Paraguard dip would be even better, that is if you are done with the formalin/MG for now. In case you aren't eradicating all the parasites, this along with clean water would give them a chance to recover their natural defenses.

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    Default Re: Discus Slime Coat - Help diagnosing microscope video

    Well, it seems calling the pigeon and the snakeskin in the hospital tank on their way to recovery may have been premature. This morning they took a dive for the worse and appear to have secondary infections. IFin rot has taken hold in both, as well as incredibly worrying, large reddish patches on the skins of my pigeon and at the base of her tail. Pure pink with red spots mixed in.

    I am changing 100% of the water and contining with paraguard in the tank at the recommended dose for now. I ran out of Rid-ich plus, so the Formalin + MG is done for now, as I did the full course. I could pick it back up or do another scrape, but I don't want to mess up their slime coats if there's no advantage.

    IMG_0362.jpg
    IMG_0361.jpg



    On a happier note, the 11 discus in the main tank continue to look and act mostly normal. . There is still the occasional fin twitch/shake-a-shake, so I think that continuing with treatment is good. I'm going to continue with daily water changes, 87 degree heat, and paraguard for another week at minimum. I'm glad I separated out the worst ones. I don't know for sure what those red patches on the white pigeon are, but they look nasty.

    Here's a video of my happy feesh. I just fed the little guys a half hour ago, but they are beggars!

    Last edited by undel; 12-08-2017 at 06:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Discus Slime Coat - Help diagnosing microscope video

    The main tank is looking good. In the hospital tank, you don't want to use formalin with open sores if there are any. Seachem says Paraguard is a safer "aldehydes" other than formaldehyde, not sure what that means... but if you treated for 3+ days with formalin and malachite green it should have been enough. I would remove any formalin that might be left, using carbon or a big WC with aged water.

    The red patch looks like an infection getting pretty advanced, all I can suggest is antibiotic. The rule of thumb is Furan II for external infection and Kanamycin for internal. Furan II is easy to get and would be good for the fin rot.

    Higher temps give bacteria an advantage, if the temp is still up you should let it slowly down to 82F.

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    Default Re: Discus Slime Coat - Help diagnosing microscope video

    Roger. Thank you for the advice. The temperature was at 84 in the hospital tank. I lowered it to 82 and added antibiotics after a complete water change.

    The video I took of the "healthy" main tank was from 8 hours ago... everyone was fine. Now my red melon has some white spots! Blarg!

    IMG_0364.jpg

    Here's a scrape from the red melon's slime coat. Still a lot of moving bits if you look in the right place. I didnt' find movers until about 2:50 in the video.
    https://youtu.be/T1roR8dQlH4?t=2m54s


    The red melon that's affected is currently sitting in a 1 hour paraguard dip. Since it's only him and none of the other fish (yet) I may as well clean him up a bit. It's still in my tank though. The main tank never got a true parasite-killer in it. Just the lighter Paraguard at 1tsp/10 gallons and wimpy heat of 87. I'm going to put the additional airstones (total 5) back in and use a proper round of rid-ich-plus (formalin and malachite green). I'll pick a bottle up tomorrow. Whatever this is (ich, mites, or Chilodonella) it's going to be treated by F & MG. or If I lose the biofilter or my snails, so be it. I'm doing massive daily water changes either way. This needs gone :-/
    Last edited by undel; 12-09-2017 at 03:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Discus Slime Coat - Help diagnosing microscope video

    Hmm... in the video this time I saw very little, if any, motility that was independent of the fluid movement. What was the magnification?

    If the white spots are caused by protozoa you would expect other symptoms like clamped fins, twitching fins, flashing, excess slime, trouble breathing, breathing at surface. They had a few of those symptoms earlier but do you see any now with the red melon?

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    Default Re: Discus Slime Coat - Help diagnosing microscope video

    The video was using the 40x magnification and the 0.3 MP camera.

    The red melon had completely normal behavior. Hungry, using the full water column to swim, fins held high. However, it had those little white poinpoint spots, which I'm sure aren't microbubbles. I was using aged water, and I even put my hand in the aquarium to try and brush the "bubbles" off. They didn't budge.

    The red melon received a paraguard dip last night. I only got a half hour into the dip before I realized they weren't tolerating it well. I put them back into the tank and they shed their entire slime coat within three hours. However, this morning they are acting normal (fins/water column/food/behavior), though I see some slight cloudiness to their slime coat.

    The F&MG won't arrive until tomorrow, so I can still abort if needed. I am still leaning towards it, simply because I want to be sure. My fish are acting mostly normal in the main tank, but they do twitch their fins rapidly every now and again, as if they are trying to shake something off. This could be that they're irritated by the paraguard? If it's not irresponsible, I'd like to do a 3 day course of F&MG, then return temps to 84 and get my UV and purigen back up and running. Call it finished unless fish start relasping.

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    Default Re: Discus Slime Coat - Help diagnosing microscope video

    I looked again at the video and now I see some, fewer than before and less energetic, which is to be expected. A round of F&MG looks to me like a reasonable plan.

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    Default Re: Discus Slime Coat - Help diagnosing microscope video

    Treating main tank with F&MG:
    As an update, the main tank is being treated with quick cure, a formalin and malachite green solution I got from my LFS. I opted not to use the rid ich plus that I received by mail. It was 20 degrees where I live and I didn't trust that the medication didn't freeze on its way to me. I read that if it freezes, it WILL kill fish.


    Chemical separation due to freezing. Possible burning/poisoning of fish:
    -Which brings me to an observation. Looking back, the white pigeon and snakeskin were both improving steadily until I finished up the malachite green/formalin, and were even good with the dip I did with my first bottle of paraguard - both of which were meds that I've had since summer. I ran out and I needed to order more paraguard. After the dip with the new bottle, the snakeskin looked worse and the pigeon went downhill fast. So much so that 36 hours later she had that red bacterial infection and fin rot. My red melon also seemed to not tolerate the new bottle of paraguard well, as I had to cut the dip short because he started tilting and then lost his entire slime coat.

    I strongly suspect my Paraguard may have frozen in the mailbox. I retrieved it several hours after it was delivered. It seemed as if it was still liquid when I pulled it inside, but that doesn't mean it wasn't partially frozen and only certain chemicals retained liquid status. I did not open it to pour it out until the next day, so I never visually verified its status. I don't know if it has the same issue as f&MG in regards to freezing, but I'm not discounting the possibility that it freezing separated chemicals into something moderately toxic to the fish. I suspect that the fins and slime coats of my hospital discus were burned, and then became infected. The hospital patients tolerated their first dip so well that I did not monitor them during their second, and was busy performing a water change on the main tank while they stewed in chemicals. I believe this (combined with the fact that they were the most weakened of my fish) is why they went downhill so fast after the dip, while the strong melon in the half hour dip only lost his entire slime coat.

    I'm waiting for my seachem forum account to be approved, so that I can inquire about paraguard and its toxicity after freezing. They seem really on the ball with answering technical questions about their products.


    Death in the hospital tank + plan for hospital tank:
    In any case, the two hospital tank patients were sitting in their third day of Nitrofurazone and Kanamycin. An hour ago, the white pigeon with the large red patches on her sides and rotting fins passed. The snakeskin seems to be recovering. His cloudy eye has cleared and his fins are high. However, I suspect he'll need an antiparasitic of some sort before I return him to the main tank. He's had a piece of long white feces hanging from him for 8 hours now. I will collect it and look at it under the microscope to find out what's up. He's going to have to wait for a week before I can treat whatever he's got though. I must finish the Furan + Kana treatment on the hospital tank, then I want to give him 3 days rest before administering whatever it is that he needs. After that, it may be another break and a final treatment of F&MG, depending on the results of the scrape. I'm not putting parasites back into the main tank. Hoping the feces is bacterial in nature and will be taken care of with the current meds he's in, or just lining. Being able to skip antiparasitics and get this guy into clean water is something I'd love to do as soon as is possible without risking any fish. I'd hate for the all the meds, stress, and kidney failure to be what ends him.


    Plan for main tank
    Speaking of the main tank, they are on day 2 of F&MG. It has killed two of my cardinal tetras, but while sad, I'm okay with that as a trade off for finally cleaning these parasites out of the tank. I have reduced heat to 82 degrees and added airstones during the treatment. After the treatment has concluded, I will return heat to 84, pop some purigen in, and turn on my UV. Let the fish just enjoy daily 50% water changes for a while. Scrape if I see anything worrisome, otherwise let's just see if they can stay healthy.
    Last edited by undel; 12-12-2017 at 06:29 AM.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Discus Slime Coat - Help diagnosing microscope video

    It will be interesting to see what Seachem says. Here is a good article on formalin.

    "Formalin should be stored in an area where it is protected from extremes of heat and cold. Never use formalin when storage temperatures fall below 40F (5C) or when a white precipitate (powder) is present. At cold temperatures formaldehyde is transformed into paraformaldehyde (white precipitate), a highly toxic material which will kill fish on contact."

    http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013...-Parasites.pdf

    And some old threads.

    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...malin-went-bad

    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...s-formaldehyde

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Discus Slime Coat - Help diagnosing microscope video

    I put some Paraguard in a test tube and stuck it in the freezer until it was frozen solid. After warming it up, the liquid is still clear (blue but clear) and I don't see any precipitate on the bottom. Maybe its ok..?

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