Mom Seeking Answers to MANY questions....are we in over our head?

[discustip]

Hello...and thank you for taking the time to read my questions. My son is almost 11 years old and has autism. His obsession is fish and this year, has been the discus fish. He got into fish about a year ago, purchased a tank and filled it with Cichlids. It was a LOT of trial by error, and realized that having a tank of aggressive fish was not the best decision. He did NOT do his homework. (nor did I!) He decided back in April, to read, watch, listen and observe everything he can about discus fish. He is not the best at explaining things, so I have questions that I am hoping to get answered before we purchase some discus. For Christmas, he was given a brand new 60 gallon Petsmart brand tank with LED lights. Our plan is to fill it up with water from the hose and let it sit for a few weeks to build good bacteria. He will be adding two heaters. One 200 watt and one 300 watt on either side. (this way he has backup in case one fails). He plans to go bare bottom, but wants decor like fake plants and some driftwood. Here are my questions:

He received a double sponge filter. It will get cycled through with the new water and stay on while we build bacteria. Is there anything else that is needed? Do I really just squeeze the sponges to clean them? Wouldn't that be putting the poop/food back into the water?

Heater: Are two heaters really necessary? (in case one fails?)

He wants to add some plants/fake driftwood from his old tank. Some of the old fish caught a disease. I am cautious to add these to the new tank. Is there a proper way to clean them or is it better to start fresh? Is real driftwood better than the fake plastic stuff?

Can his common Pleco go into the tank with this discus? He says no...(not the common one)...I just want to double check.

His tank is 60 gallons. (more tall then wide) He says 5-2.5' discus and 2 angel fish will fit. Is that too much or too risky at one time?

He wants to order from either Live Aquaria or Hans Discus USA. Are these the best place for good quality discus?

Is there a cheat cheat that shows what the water levels should be? I am trying to piece together correct water temp/nitrate/PH/Ammonia levels and different sites have different info. I just need basics info to get me through each testing.

Is it OK to use water from the sink when doing water changes? I know to use water conditioner/stress coat. I am aware that I will be doing 30% water changes every few days and siphoning the junk off the bottom of the tank daily.

Is my water bill going to go sky high with all these water changes? lol! I feel like I am going to be taking care of a newborn baby!!

What am I missing? He wants to order in a few weeks once the water is ready.....I want to make sure everything is correct before he spends $200 of his money for fish. I don't want him set up for failure. Discus are truly a beautiful fish, but I am getting nervous that I will be biting off more than I can chew with three young kids, one with autism, and our life. I don't want to be a slave to a fish tank.

Any advice would be helpful and appreciated.

[Kyla]

First thing I would recommend d is to watch this video with him:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...TCH-THIS-VIDEO!

Are you cycling the tank with pure ammonia? And if you aren't sure what I mean I would recommend to research how to "cycle a tank with ammonia" - there should be lots of posts about this on Simply.

I am very hesitant about your plan... I've been fishkeeping since I was 12 and these were the hardest fish for me to keep. There are lots of concerns raised from your plan... 30% w/c with such small discus, not aging the water in a barrel before water changes being two big ones. The video will help get some base info, and then read thru the stickies in the beginner section also.

Have you ph tested your aged water? This is where you test the ph of your tap water immediately from the tap, then fill a bucket with the same tap water and aerate it with an air stone for a day, and retest it after aeration to see if the ph has changed - it is important to know if the ph changes because this will help determine if you need to age your water in a barrel before water changes.

Hans is great, I would buy from him myself - any of the sponsors here at Simply are good choices to buy from. Hans is a sponsor. I personally don't know about live aquaria so I can't comment on them.

2 Heaters is fine - I would recommend inkbird heater controllers to prevent the tank from overheating if one of them breaks and sticks in the ON position.

I wouldnt recommend to mix angels. Some people do, but it is riskier than just going with discus because they are more aggressive feeders and I have found they bullied my discus when I tried it myself. I love a tank of angels, which are much hardier than discus and easier to keep... I would lean towards a tank of just angels for your son if he had to choose between the two species... esp because you are mentioning time commitment concerns... angels would be much more forgiving on the water-changing front.

There is more I have to add but I have company coming, there will def be others with more advice as well, but I'll try to follow up on the post later on to make sure we covered your questions. It is great to hear he is so interested in the hobby at a young age!! That's when I started too, and having a supportive parent like yourself makes a world of difference!! Big hugs to my mom and all the parents out there for letting us curious kids explore hobbies and fill the house with fish tanks lol <3

[Kyla]

Ps do not order the fish yet!!

[Adam S]

Using two heaters is fine, but the point is to use two smaller heaters so you don't boil your fish if one fails and stays ON. Two 150w heaters would be a good place to start depending on room temp. The 300w or 200w alone is probably fine if you don't want to buy more heaters.

By double sponge, do you mean the things with suction cups and two cylindrical sponges on opposite sides of a lift tube (thing bubbles go through)? That's a bit small for a 60; you'd be better off with a couple Azoo #6 sponge filters. Hydro IV sponges and Poret cubes are also good, but the Azoo's are probably your cheapest bet through Drs. Foster and Smith. Alternatively, an Aquaclear 110 would also be a good choice. I rarely clean my sponges (couple times a year in most tanks), but do it in a bucket of tank water if you feel it's necessary. I use tap water, but some have bad experiences with it killing their beneficial bacteria.

Ditch the old stuff altogether. . . but it can be bleached if your son really likes it. Soaking it in 1:19 plain bleach to water for a few hours will kill most anything, but the color might be affected. Rinse really well and let air dry to neutralize the bleach. Just a warning, real driftwood rots and stains the water like tea. The fish like it but you may not.

Ditch the common pleco too.

Don't worry about your tap water. Most places post their info online if you want to know (search "(city) water quality report"), but you will have more issues trying to adjust it than just leaving it alone.

30% is pretty mild, you should have no issues filling directly from the tap.

Water here is ~1/9 of a cent per gallon. Daily 30% water changes from a 60 gallon tank costs about $5 a month.

Honestly, angelfish may be better and it sounds like your son is already interested in them. I don't know enough about discus to compare the two, but angels are tough fish. I've seen fish sold to customers that grew into decent, baseball-sized fish with 20%-30% weekly changes and flake food. Of course, they will grow hand-sized if treated like discus .

[BABYJIZAY]

DO NOT ORDER from live aquaria. Hans is very well known and has great discus. There is a section on here for sponsors where you can discover and buy some amazing fish. You do not want to buy discus from just anywhere.

[Kyla]

The reason we dont recommend mixing common plecos with discus is because they have been known to suck on the sides of the discus and cause injuries. They also grow very large... Some plecos can be mixed with discus, such as the bristle nose pleco. Where is this pleco currently living? Are you running other tanks also?

I second the recommendation to soak any items in a bleach+water mix for safety. Cross-contamination from your previous fish tank is a concern, esp if you think there was an illness in that tank. So I would recommend to also soak any nets/rocks/buckets/tools etc so u can start with a clean slate.

What kind of water conditioner do you use? I don't recommend stress coat, I have just not felt it was necessary, and I try to keep my routine as simple as possible - no carbon in my filters either. My fav water conditioner is Seachem prime, used by a lot of keepers here. I use the powdered version which is Seachem Safe, because it lasts and lasts and lasts, but Prime is great for smaller water changes/tanks. Prime & Safe are awesome to have on hand in case of issues with the cycle of the tank because they can neutralize/bind the toxins in the water for a period of time in an emergency. After I bleach my items I also soak them in a water+Safe mix to neutralize any remaining bleach, although most ppl would say the items r prob fine after a good rinse and thorough drying period.
This is the product I'm talking about: http://www.seachem.com/prime.php

Do you have a test kit for ph/ammonia/nitrite/nitrate ? A cycled tank will have 0 ammonia and nitrite, and you will want to aim to keep the nitrate as low as possible - 5 is a good # to aim for, which means LOTS of water changes! Discus can be kept at a fairly wide range of pH, despite coming from water with a very low pH. The main thing to watch is that your pH remains consistent. Consistency of pH is more important than the actual pH (to a degree). If you can do that water ph aging test and let us know the before/after pH that will help us give advice.

A BB tank is fantastic! I am usually trying to convince ppl to go with BB so the fact he wants to start out with BB is a bonus

What kind of hose are you using to fill the tank? I've heard that some newer garden hoses can be toxic but I don't know if it's true or not. To be on the safe side I just use the clear tubing from my Python water change system and a drinking-water Safe hose. Can you give us a breakdown of the plan for changing the water exactly? Eg are you using hoses and pumps, or carrying buckets, where is the tap in relation to the tank, is there space for a water aging barrel, what temp is the water entering the tank going to be, etc? Just because water changing is SO important in discus keeping, so the easier you can make this task the more likely you will have success, so the more we know about it the better suggestions we can give.

If he is going with discus I would strongly recommend to save up $ and get the largest discus you can afford... the larger they are the stronger their immune systems will be and the easier it will be to care for them. Small discus are more fragile, need to be fed more often and need more water changes to ensure proper growth. It is more $ up front to get larger discus but it saves a lot of time and effort, lessens the chance of stunting the fish during your first try with discus, and overall will give you a better chance of success.

Are you planning to paint the bottom of the tank? The discus like a solid floor to their tank and can get a bit freaked out by clear glass under them.

What types of food are you planning to feed?

Def give that vid a watch and look into "fishless cycling" threads on this forum. It could take longer than a few weeks to cycle your tank properly and grow enough beneficial bacteria using pure ammonia, so you have some time to make decisions before you purchase any fish. You are off to a great start by researching and this forum is a wealth of info with very supportive folk who want to help you succeed! Good luck, and keep us updated (we love pics!!!)

[Neptune]

First off I think its fantastic that you and your son and attempting to tackle this hobby! My son has had a fish tank in his room since he was born. He is 23 now and is into nano planted tanks. We have a lot of great bonding moments to this day over tanks!


He received a double sponge filter. It will get cycled through with the new water and stay on while we build bacteria. Is there anything else that is needed? Do I really just squeeze the sponges to clean them? Wouldn't that be putting the poop/food back into the water?
You can get by with only sponge filters in 60 gallon tanks. Aquaclear HOB(hang on back) are a good easy choice as well.
You don't squeeze them out in the tank. When you do a WC(water change) save some water in a bucket. Squeeze the filter in the bucket to clean.

Heater: Are two heaters really necessary? (in case one fails?)
It's a good plan.
Keep the temp. Between 80 and 82.

He wants to add some plants/fake driftwood from his old tank. Some of the old fish caught a disease. I am cautious to add these to the new tank. Is there a proper way to clean them or is it better to start fresh? Is real driftwood better than the fake plastic stuff?
I would start with new stuff. Plastic plants are not that expensive. I would not reuse the driftwood. Too hard to sterilize especially if you had a known disease with it.

Can his common Pleco go into the tank with this discus? He says no...(not the common one)...I just want to double check.
Lots of downsides to this and not many upsides:
1. It should be quarantined again before adding to tank.
2. They are big messy poopers.
3. They have been known to suck the sides of discus.

His tank is 60 gallons. (more tall then wide) He says 5-2.5' discus and 2 angel fish will fit. Is that too much or too risky at one time?
I would skip the angels. They will get large as well and take away from the maximum bioload for your tank. In other words, they are taking up tank resources that your discus can use. If they pair up they will stake out part of the tank as well. But 5 discus in a 60 is ok. General rule is 1 discus/10 gals.

He wants to order from either Live Aquaria or Hans Discus USA. Are these the best place for good quality discus?
Hans all the way! Don't even consider Live Aquaria! But the largest size you can afford and buy them all at once if you can.

Is there a cheat cheat that shows what the water levels should be? I am trying to piece together correct water temp/nitrate/PH/Ammonia levels and different sites have different info. I just need basics info to get me through each testing.
pH is not all that important as long as it is stable. It's pH swings that cause issues. My discus routinely lay eggs in 8.0 pH from the tap. They don't hatch but I figure if the adults are laying the pH can't be bothering them.
Ammonia 0!
Nitrate <20 and the lower the better. WC are done to keep it low.

Is it OK to use water from the sink when doing water changes? I know to use water conditioner/stress coat. I am aware that I will be doing 30% water changes every few days and siphoning the junk off the bottom of the tank daily.
Tap water is OK, but the real trick is to AGE it. Let is sit with a heater and aeration for 24 hours before using if you can.

Is my water bill going to go sky high with all these water changes? lol! I feel like I am going to be taking care of a newborn baby!!
YES!

What am I missing? He wants to order in a few weeks once the water is ready.....I want to make sure everything is correct before he spends $200 of his money for fish. I don't want him set up for failure. Discus are truly a beautiful fish, but I am getting nervous that I will be biting off more than I can chew with three young kids, one with autism, and our life. I don't want to be a slave to a fish tank.

Any advice would be helpful and appreciated.

Some general notes:

Discus are not all that different from any aquarium fish. Yes they have a few special requirements but once you adhere to them and learn how to deal with them you can be successful with these fish.
Bare bottom is truly the way to go. It simplifies the care of these fish 1000% percent!
Listen to expert advice from the pros here. The only time I have gotten into trouble with these fish is when I thought I knew more than the pros...(it has never worked in my favor!)
Get the largest fish you can afford and order them all at once. It will get you started on the right foot and be a big leap towards success.

I tried to keep my answers as short and simple as possible to get you started. But in general you sound like you have a good plan in place and are asking the right questions. I think you are well on your way to being successful with this hobby! There are always setbacks in this hobby, but roll with the punches and you will be fine!
Good luck, can't wait to see pictures, you son is going to love these fish!

[discustip]

WOW! This is a lot to take in. OK...we are making adjustments. We will be testing the water over the next 24 hours and will report those numbers back to you! My son has between $150 and $200 to spend to start. Are the 3 and 4' a good size to start with? I know we wont plunk all his money into one large expensive fish. He really wants a Dark Angel, but I am leaning more towards the Blue Turquoise, Checkboard, etc. I am hoping he gets more bang for his buck. Can he mix types of discus? Or should he stay with ONE type?
Where does one get paint for the bottom of a fish tank?
We will start the fishless cycling once we have the results from the water test and after the bottom of tank is painted. I am sure we will have more questions. We will watch the video (again) later today! lol! it was many months ago we watched so a refresher is certainly in order.

I cannot thank you all enough for answering our questions. SO So kind of you all to take the time to answer us!

Mom!

[gators111]

You can mix the discus types. Some types are cheaper than others. BUT only buy them from one source, otherwise they could cross contaminate. Also, don't buy any wild imports. They are much more demanding and not for beginners. I would suggest watching a lot of videos on Youtube. The King of DIY has a video from the founder of this forum giving an hour speech on keeping discus. Patience and planning is the key to a successful tank, which unfortunately tends to be in direct contrast to kids with autism/Asperger's.

[discustip]

I am having trouble loading images. We have purchased this double filter: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

is this one OK?

We also have the following products:
API: Aquarium salt, pH up, pH down, Freshwater master test kit, Omega one Freeze Dried Blood Worms and another canister of brine shrimp.

We are off to our aquarium warehouse (not Petco type place) to grab the paint for the bottom of the tank. Let us know if there is anything else we need. Thanks so much!

[discustip]

One more question: Looked at Amazon for aquarium paint and didn't see any. Hoping the aquarium store has some. Is this something that exist? What am I looking for? Thanks!

[gators111]

Any latex paint from home depot will do. I use cheap spray paint.

[gators111]

Also, the paint goes on the out side of the tank.

[gators111]

Also, go with a lighter color. Avoid black or navy blue. It may be an old wives' tale, but darker colors are believed to enhance peppering in discus.

[two utes]

One more question: Looked at Amazon for aquarium paint and didn't see any. Hoping the aquarium store has some. Is this something that exist? What am I looking for? Thanks!

Welcome to the hobby It looks like you are off on a good start, and obtaining lots of good information from here.

I like to use water based paints painted on thin plywood or MDF material and placed on the rear, sides, and bottom of tank where needed. These can be purchased from any hardware store. This method will make it easy to change colors without having to scrape paint off glass. Just wanting to make sure that you know that you do not paint the insides of the tank.

Good luck with your project.