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Thread: Whirling Disease

  1. #31
    Registered Member Bizarro252's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Thanks Andrew! The Discus who died was the only one acting this way, and he would do these random acts of darting around, slamming into things, appear to 'pass out' laying flat on the bottom of the tank or floating flat at the surface - and then return to normal..like he snapped out of it. That first video captured this, I have many more just like it as I recorded for a week and he did this about once per day.

    That second, more violent video was caught by luck as I walked by the tank and the others showed their usual interest in me but he was just staring forward, so I observed him and about 30 seconds later he started freaking out, flying around the tank and 'passing out' that was the first time I observed him shooting through the water upwards and slamming into the lids as well, and apparently he hit hard enough to kill him.

    I was particularly interested in your comments describing the darting and lying flat being attributed to flagulites infecting the blood as this fish exhibited those symptoms and likely had onset of Hex at the time it started since the others started showing very obvious symptoms after hsi death, and the usual medication and treatment cleared it up.

    I never observed this fish spinning in circles uninterrupted for a length of time, it was more darting around the tank, slamming into things, 'passing out' and laying flat....darting some more, and then eventually he would snap out of it - until that last time that it went on for 5+ minutes and he never snapped out of it.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    I agree with Andrew. Whirling is different from just banging around. It is spinning fast for several seconds at least , and then either recovering fairly quickly, or falling to the bottom of the tank as if dead, then recovering and ok for a while, or really being dead.

    One thing I also noted is that some fry, immediate after they go free swimming, also spin slowly. These never survive for long and they spin and never stop spinning. I don't know if this is common or not. I see at least a few of these in every batch of fry.

  3. #33
    Registered Member Andrew Soh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Yes, it happens to fry’s too. Most likely parasitic infestation. There are ways to see the whole picture but first, whirling disease is when the discus/ fish spins around an axis, then dart and then spinning at an axis like bar-top dancer (you know what I mean?&#128524.

    Discus diseases are quite easy to diagnose:
    1. Endo-bacterial: Discus body will darken and can be in corner or slowly Swimming about.
    2. Ecto-bacterial infestation: fin-rot, breathing problem, no change in colour and may have bleeding from wounds/ulcers.
    3. Protozoan infestation: No change in colour, only darting, jerking, vibrating, dislodge of scales(costia), heavy breathing near surface.
    4. Viral infection: lighten in color, movement is slow, swim near surface in a lethargic manner and insensitive to touch(as though he is “blind”). When you take a white tissue to wrap any bodily surface, you will witness blood on tissue. If you do a bacto-culture, you get negative results so when there is virus, there is no bacteria.
    **So your’s is neither bacterial Nor viral
    That’s all for the time being
    Thanks👍
    Andrew
    Last edited by Andrew Soh; 01-25-2018 at 07:26 PM. Reason: Typo error

  4. #34
    Registered Member Bizarro252's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Great summary Andrew thank you. If that is what whirling disease is then it is not what I was dealing with as I never saw him spin on an axis. Only:

    Darting
    'Passing out' floating aimlessly
    Floating on side at surface
    Laying on side on bottom
    Slowed/stopped breathing for up to ~30 seconds of no gill movement, only to 'snap out of it' and dart around again
    Flexing mouth outwards, appeared to be choking, may have just been random
    Shooting out of the water into the glass lid (this appears to be the hit that killed him)

    During this time, most of the time he would act seemingly normal, not hiding and still eating. He would just go into these 'fits' a couple times a day.
    Last edited by Bizarro252; 01-26-2018 at 11:43 AM.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Mr. Andrew Soh indicated that it was most likely a parasitic infestation. Could Andrew or other(s) elaborate further upon this? Is there any suggestion that gill flukes may be a cause? Thanks.

    Richard

  6. #36
    Registered Member Andrew Soh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    It may not be gill flukes, as mentioned, the gills weren’t moving.....

    So the next most likely cause is damaged liver or other organ maybe due to feed or chemical that is moderately added slowly but surely destroying the fish, Nothing can be certain and definitely I’m unable to affirmatively pin-point as there is no post-mortem done. But one sign for sure is the dark shade on the belly I witnessed🤔.

    Thanks, seeing some of you great guys/gals in NJ👌

    Andrew

  7. #37
    Registered Member Bizarro252's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Andrew,
    The dark shade on the belly, is that from another fish you have seen this on or are you referring to my fish pics/videos?
    BTW sheesh go back to sleep! I work with people in Singapore and its like 5am there!



    Thanks!

  8. #38
    Registered Member Andrew Soh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Your video, Sir. Slightly down-tone as compared to the rest of the body

    Andrew

  9. #39
    Registered Member Andrew Soh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    I’m an old man....so I wake up 4 am....and retired. Any job for me😬😬😬

  10. #40
    Registered Member Bizarro252's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    haha

    I never noted it, I will go take a closer look!

  11. #41
    Homesteader Filip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    This has turned in to a very nice and informative thread Bizzaro .
    I have had similar experiences in the past so I will just put the link here to share my experience as well and how they have easily recovered from the whirling symtoms:

    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...irling+disease

  12. #42
    Registered Member slicksta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Hi Guys,
    I always hesitate to add my speculations to discussions like this. I don't think what we are dealing with is a Virus, but its just as likely a guess as my own. I have no hard facts on this. I just have my observations like everyone else here to go on. I will go out on a limb and mention though that I really think we aren't dealing with a pathogen. I haven't seen any evidence that shows its contagious. We haven't had fishrooms crashing or even multiple tanks in most cases where people report this. Again, I could be way off.. maybe there is a viral component. I'm not a microbiologist and have been out of a lab for far too long.

    My thoughts on this are its not a pathogen at all, its a condition. Gas Bubble Disease. Its very well known condition that causes embolisms in fish when there is too much dissolved gas in the water. As Discus keepers we very commonly do huge water changes. Many of us "age" our water, which stabilizes it , but we are blowing off gases like CO2 there.. It can still be over saturated with other gases if you use too much air .. More isn't always better.

    What got me on this train of thought was what happens here if I don't age my water... I do have alot of gas in my water.. Co2 mostly. I can easily create condition where I have a tank full juveniles darting and crashing and spinning out of control and dying, I have many times and thats why I limit myself to 30% tap. Its more pronounced in the smaller fish and I initially attributed to the dissolved gases covering their gills and irritating them or suffocating them. I did notice though that in my adults the response was varied. Some fish in the tank handle it fine. Others freak out and dart.. I have had some adults die in hours of a huge water changes. Again, thats why I use the 30% unaged wc now as a max, more with aged is fine. ... But this is when it gets interesting. The skittish darting doesn't end in a day....when the tanks water has aged over time.. It persists for several days.. which tells me that it may be internalized... and gas bubble embolisms.. also called gas bubble disease fits that. To further my point, I also noted in several fish that I could sometimes see small bubbles in their eyes and over time they would fade. .. possibly gas bubble disease? maybe, If this was to happen in the brain or other sensitive areas..I can see what may happen here.

    So what else do we know. Its seems we see a spike in the winter.. thats generally when water is cooler and holds more gas .. But we also see a spike attributed to wilds and not just any wild.. this seasons wilds. Though its possible they are carrying a native virus, or picked something up from other fish, Its also possible that they have gas bubble disease from a combination of pressure changes in the airplanes and oxygen used in the shipping bags. > keep in mind Discus do not come from oxygen rich fast moving waters.. There may be combinations of factors that cause the condition here. When we see it Domestics... Its possible its from something similar if they are new stock,or recently imported. It can take days to weeks for the gas embolism to disappear.

    I admit its a speculation on my part but when I seen what I have here with regards to water changes... If I stop doing water changes or drastically reduce them, the fish show no more symptoms after several days. It may very well be that our knee jerk reaction to do more water changes because our fish may be sick could actually be compounding a condition.

    I would suggest anyone that has fish with this issue, get the fish to Dr. Smith here.. http://www.vetmed.vt.edu/people/bios/smiths.asp
    He has an interest in Discus and is currently researching them and Cryptobia....who knows maybe that organism is involved... if not he may be the one that can look into your ideas on Virus, maybe even mine on Gas Bubble Disease. This Pathologist was a speaker at NADA 2016 and Is really very knowledgeable. It would be very worthwhile I think.


    An option though rather indirect would be if you are having fish exhibit this condition, Try the no water changes or drastically reduced water changes for a week and see what happens. If its a virus, it will probably not matter either way. However, ifs its Gas Bubble disease as the Gas bubbles subside..the fishes behavior should drastically improve,Not sure the effect over filtration would have on this so thats a variable I can't account for.

    Like I said, I have nothing scientific here but you may want to consider it and apply it to your conditions..

    hth,
    al

    Gas bubble disease in fish..

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9289892

    http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/pu...les/216031.pdf

    https://en.wikivet.net/Gas_Bubble_Disease


    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/8/fish

    https://bettalatethannever.jimdo.com...ubble-disease/

    ....................................Theres a ton of information out there on This.......................


    I just went through my first ever whirling episode and I thought I would add my experience here to possibly help others.
    A little over a month ago I picked up 6 of each, F1 wild and wild/domestic mix... all more or less 2" juveniles.
    One of the bunch was not eating so I slowly raised the temp to 89° from the get go.
    It took a few weeks for him to get on board but when he did I slowly started to lower the temp shooting for 85-86°
    My new Aqueon pro heater has been a bit of a pain to adjust so when it landed at a constant 84° I just left it.
    Those that know me know that I am a big fan of a constant drip for water changes and have been using it successfully for many years without issue. I'm using it now with a group raised from eggs and so far no problems and I'm dripping both groups at about the same rate keeping nitrates below 5ppm
    Well...
    After about a month of having the juveniles and about 5 days of having lowered the temp to 84° I got a whirler. I came on here and read this thread and a few others as well as a few articles elsewhere and I wasn't sure what to think or do. By that evening he was whirling aggressively and really beating himself up. It seemed worse during feedings so I shut the light, stopped feeding and increased the drip slightly. By morning he was dead and he had passed the whirling baton to another fish. Now I was starting to panic a bit but I couldn't come up with a course of action. I read things over and watched and as the day went on it was a repeat of the day before, progressively getting worse. At that point I shut off my drip as I had stopped feeding.
    The next morning I had the same situation, the whirler was dead and now a third had started. The only other thing I could think to do was to raise the temp back up to 89° so I did. Still not feeding or dripping. The following morning all seemed backed to normal. Again the new heater calibration is awful and the temp had only raised 2° to 86°.
    So I set the drip to a minimum and fed lightly. Over the course of a few more days I slowly increased the drip and feedings and so far all seems to be well.
    I can't believe that the amount of dissolved gas held in water that is only 2° cooler was the problem, but honestly I don't know what else to think.
    My community tanks as well as the newborns are at 82° and I've never had whirlers before.

  13. #43
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    This thread is great.
    Mama Bear

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