Dark discus' (blue diamond, striated red, green, and marlboro) - Brewmaster15, HALP

[Mando]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

My discus used to have beautiful colors and would eat plenty with the exception of the marlboros. I decided to have a planted tank so I added substrate, wood, and plants about 3 months ago. This was the end of their beautiful colorations. The fish began to have white stringy, segmented feces, they ate less, and were hidden the majority of the time. I believe that the wood/plants and the addition of the tetras caused this abnormal situation.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

1. cloudy eyes and white spots (I treated for ick)
A. cloudy eyes got better and white spots disappeared the next day.
B. I believe something else is still causing cloudy eyes.
2. Very dark and hidden most of the time
3. Rare flash (not enough to consider flukes)
4. only eating blood worms.
5. white to brown poop and segmented
6. snail outbreak

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

1. treated for ick at the bottles recommended dosage. (marineland ick remedy) - 1 tbsp per 10 gallons. over 4 weeks ago and up'd the temp to 90.
a. Ick spots disappeared. however, still dark. only eating blood worms. Lowered temps to 84.
b. fish began swimming around more actively.
2. treated with Metro powder. 1 packet per 15 gallons as recommended - 2 weeks ago
a. fish seem to get better. Finally started seeing redish feces. However, they worsened on the second treatment. (stopped treating with metro)
b. Striated reds seem to have gained some coloration but they do have some extremely dark stress bars. some days the fish is dark but bright? if that makes any sense, and then extremely dark; more dark days than bright.
3. Today, on top of my automatic daily, 75% to 100%, water changes, I did an additional 25% water change and added pond salt @ 1 tbsp. per 10 gallon and up'd the temp to 90. (overall tank gets about 88)
a. a lot of activity and better color


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

The tank is a 55 gallon tank; I have 6 Marlboros at 2", 3 striated reds at 3" and 2 blue diamonds at 4". My 2" Marlboros have not grown for over 6 months and it's partly due to the issues I am having with the others being dark and not eating. Even when they were in a bare bottom tank, they did not eat well unless hand fed. Unfortunately, these fish are picky eaters. I tried pellets, tetra flakes, live black worms, and a beefheart diet from Jack Wattley to no avail. They only wanted to be hand fed freeze dried blood worms. Now, they seem to be eating Hans flakes extremely well. It's the first food that they actually eat, thus, giving me hopes that the small Marlboros will survive. Some seem to be getting a bit meaty but others are extremely skinny/thinned. At this point, I know that they are stunted. However, I want them to survive. Also, I did not set the feeder correctly and did not realize that they did not eat for 2 days. My grandmother passed after a stage 4 cancer battle and I did not have the time to notice they were not eating.


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

I do daily 75% to 100% water changes. My tanks are connected to my yards sprinkler system. The well pump kicks on in four segments and each segment runs for 30 minutes. They also have an hour in-between each segments. So, the water change is done in over a four hour spread. The water is pre-filtered using 3 canisters outside of my house. First canister contains lava rocks; second canister contains carbon and k1 media, third canister contains a polyester filter media for fine cleaning. The tank is running on a 70gallon marineland filter w/ bio wheel. I will be doing a DIY filter outside of my house in exchange of the marineland filter. I know I have an overstocked tank and I cannot go lightly with filtration. In addition to these daily water changes, I also clean the bottom of both, my 55 gallon and my breeding (10 gallon) daily with the exception of last week. (grandma). I currently have a pair of pigeon bloods watching over 60+ eggs.




6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

the 10 gallon is bare bottom; 55 gallon has 1" - 2" substrate.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

My water is not aged.


8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp ___82-84__

- ph __7.5 consistent.

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading _0___

- nitrate reading _0___

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water _100%___

- municipal water __0__

- RO water _0___


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

I believe that they started getting sick because I did not qt the following:

12 neon tetras, 15 rummy nose tetra, 2 cory cats, and L27 Royal pleco. (keep in mind wood and plants)

10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Now, Hans flakes 4 times a day using Eheim auto feeder and 1 manual feed at night. They all seem to be eating this food. Please note that feeding has been an issue over the past 6 months. Extremely picky eating discus.
Occasionally, I'll hand feed blood worms as a treat since I want them to get off of this bloodworm diet.


11. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

I will add a link on second post.

[jmf3460]

where is the link to the pictures?

[Mando]

I just posted the thread, give me a sec to upload them.

https://imgur.com/a/hW4Vv (some algae on glass)

This is now at their current stage. I think that a lot of their dark colors also come from the black substrate and purple wall.

https://imgur.com/a/SqMVQ - before

[Kyla]

I'm not going to suggest treatment but I would def recommend to revert back to BB. U can put plants in pots if u want to keep them. I'm a big fan of BB and u said u were having success with it and liked the colours better with it. Plus any treatment will be more effective with BB... and it's so much easier to clean, esp if ur tank overstocked.

Ur little guys look real thin... I put loose freeze dried australian black worms in my autofeeder, maybe FDBW would help bulk them up? Or some kind of pellet? Do u actually see them eating the flakes?

[brewmaster15]

HI Mando,
The Pair look like they are doing ok... The substrate tank fish are really not well. As you noted they are stunted. The black substrate is bringing out the dark pigments in them but the base problem is they aren't happy in that tank.

12 neon tetras, 15 rummy nose tetra, 2 cory cats, and L27 Royal pleco. (keep in mind wood and plants)

in a 55 gal tank with juvenile discus is a major stress factor. Its way too much activity and they would be hard pressed to get much food if they did like what was on the menu. Its hard to say whats going on but when the discus are stressed they are susceptible to all sorts of health issues. Your first step here in turning them around is to move the other fish out. Since they are stunted they won't get much bigger but can fill out and show more color if not stressed. Personally I would put the discus in a bare tank until they are bigger but your planted tank isn't really planted...more like sand and driftwood. Its not ideal for growing young discus but work able.

al

[Kyla]

Sorry I somehow missed all of # 3 and 4, I see u said they were eating the flakes well. Re: the colour, a lighter coloured sand will also help reduce their peppering and make the Blues a lot brighter. That javafern doesn't even need sand to grow, u can just tie it to the log and it will root against it, if u do go BB or reduce the amount of sand etc.

[Mando]

I'm not going to suggest treatment but I would def recommend to revert back to BB. U can put plants in pots if u want to keep them. I'm a big fan of BB and u said u were having success with it and liked the colours better with it. Plus any treatment will be more effective with BB... and it's so much easier to clean, esp if ur tank overstocked.

Ur little guys look real thin... I put loose freeze dried australian black worms in my autofeeder, maybe FDBW would help bulk them up? Or some kind of pellet? Do u actually see them eating the flakes?

They started to eat HANS flakes and I see the marlboros getting meaty now. They are extremely active. I got rid of most of the plants befote the photo as I thought they were causing some issues.

[Mando]

HI Mando,
The Pair look like they are doing ok... The substrate tank fish are really not well. As you noted they are stunted. The black substrate is bringing out the dark pigments in them but the base problem is they aren't happy in that tank. in a 55 gal tank with juvenile discus is a major stress factor. Its way too much activity and they would be hard pressed to get much food if they did like what was on the menu. Its hard to say whats going on but when the discus are stressed they are susceptible to all sorts of health issues. Your first step here in turning them around is to move the other fish out. Since they are stunted they won't get much bigger but can fill out and show more color if not stressed. Personally I would put the discus in a bare tank until they are bigger but your planted tank isn't really planted...more like sand and driftwood. Its not ideal for growing young discus but work able.

al

Thanks you for your advice. The pair are doing great watching over their eggs in their 30gallon. Today they should become wigglers. I got rid of most of my plants prior to taking the photos in the 55g. I will be going back to bare bottom and giving the tetras away. I will provide an update soon. They are eating! I am feeding 5 times a day and the little marlboros are doing great eating the food. I can tell that the blue diamonds are not stunted using the stackable eye rule. The striated reds seem to be slightly stunted.

[Kyla]

That is excellent! Def let us know how it goes

[Mando]

I lost one and not sure why. The others are doing wonderful. I removed the substrate and the wood. However, I cannot find a home for the tetras. I will take them to the pet store come the weekend to see if they will take them for free. Surprisingly, I came home to nice colored feces and no left over food. I made the opening to the automatic feeder a bit bigger so it can dispense more. One of the blue diamonds is nearly white with these bright orange eyes. The gloss/cloudiness left their eyes and the striated reds are showing magnificent colors as well.

That is excellent! Def let us know how it goes

HI Mando,
The Pair look like they are doing ok... The substrate tank fish are really not well. As you noted they are stunted. The black substrate is bringing out the dark pigments in them but the base problem is they aren't happy in that tank. in a 55 gal tank with juvenile discus is a major stress factor. Its way too much activity and they would be hard pressed to get much food if they did like what was on the menu. Its hard to say whats going on but when the discus are stressed they are susceptible to all sorts of health issues. Your first step here in turning them around is to move the other fish out. Since they are stunted they won't get much bigger but can fill out and show more color if not stressed. Personally I would put the discus in a bare tank until they are bigger but your planted tank isn't really planted...more like sand and driftwood. Its not ideal for growing young discus but work able.

al

Oh, and we got wigglers yesterday! the pair continue to flirt as they watch over their fry.

[Mando]

HI Mando,
The Pair look like they are doing ok... The substrate tank fish are really not well. As you noted they are stunted. The black substrate is bringing out the dark pigments in them but the base problem is they aren't happy in that tank. in a 55 gal tank with juvenile discus is a major stress factor. Its way too much activity and they would be hard pressed to get much food if they did like what was on the menu. Its hard to say whats going on but when the discus are stressed they are susceptible to all sorts of health issues. Your first step here in turning them around is to move the other fish out. Since they are stunted they won't get much bigger but can fill out and show more color if not stressed. Personally I would put the discus in a bare tank until they are bigger but your planted tank isn't really planted...more like sand and driftwood. Its not ideal for growing young discus but work able.

al

Hey, Brew; sad news . I've lost two of the little marlboros but I kinda knew that was coming. They seem to have gotten way to stunted beyond survival. Although the stunted marlboros that are left are eating, some still look really skinny (sucked in or skeletal) and two of my blue diamonds have gone dark again. feces is black, stringy, and some times segmented with white string holding the segments together. Please advise. I'm leaning towards buying a microscope. I'd hate to lose more.


Edit: Tetras are gone. Also, the blue diamond that has amazing color is harrasing all the other ones, could that be why the two blue diamonds have gone dark?

[Mando]

I was thinking of putting the little guys in their own 30g. I think they are a bit intimidated by the bigger 3" + guys. Even though they swim together.

[Mando]

Not sure what to do here guys. Should I start some kind of medication? All three blue diamonds are pretty dark and one of the striated reds are clamped and up in the corner by the filter. I'm buying epsom salt to see if that will help.

[Mando]

So I've added 1 tbls per 10 gallons and the fish seem to have some improvement. The one hiding is not longer clamped and swimming with the pact. Still has stress bars but great improvement.

[Mando]

The 30g discus pair are not doing well now. Discus is spinning (not whirling). She's doing frontal flips but keeps balance for the most part. She is tail standing as well. Anyone, please chime in and help.

Edit: I did a 50% water change and added 1 tbl spoon of epsom salt per 10 gallons.