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Thread: Discus - Help Please!

  1. #1
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    Leandrah Warren

    Default Discus - Help Please!

    Hi Guys,
    I'm new here and i was wondering if perhaps some of you could share your insight on the possible issues with my Discus. My Questionnaire is below - Thank you. Also, there are no unhealthy dominance issues in the tank. The color in the tank seems slightly green from the Polyguard medication dosed last night (the water isnt dirty )

    DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE

    Problem

    1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them? My Discus seem to scratch themselves on objects, face first, i noticed it around 3 months ago and started the treatments i thought best (Originally i thought it was underlying ich)


    2. Symptoms - They have no symptoms other than the scratching. (no white spots or anything), they seem to flick to the side and some times it seems as if they have shivers because they'll clamp their fins and wriggle slightly (as if they are itchy) - hope this makes sense. The one Discus likes to hide at the top of the tank and has lost quite a bit of his color (he's very pale) but he seems to be improving slightly with the current treatment i am using.


    3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
    I have previously used metroplex (2 scoops per 40L for 3 weeks - no change), and i have used Paraguard (required dosage as per the bottle - no change). I am now using Seachem Polyguard - required dosage of 1 level spoon per 40L (I have a 274l tank and am using 7 spoons), salt (260g for a 274L Tank), and the temperature is up to 32 degrees - they seem to be better and the one little guy has gotten some of his colour back.


    Tank/Water

    4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
    274L, 8 Discus, 1 Leopard Pleco and 2 cory's, decent sizes (will attach pictures)

    5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
    50% water change 2 - 3 times a week

    6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
    This specific tank has been running for 6 months, i have white gravel at the bottom - probably around 3cm's thick

    7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
    I do not age my water but i do make sure that the PH of the water i add is the same as the PH of the tank water to try and eliminate PH swings, my PH usually tests the same after a water change as it does the next day

    8. Parameters and water source;

    Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


    - temp 32

    - ph 7

    - ammonia reading 0

    - nitrite reading 0

    - nitrate reading 10

    What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.
    municipal water

    9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
    No - this issue has been ongoing for ages

    10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can. I feed my fish Discus Bio-Gold, once a day
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Leandrahwarren; 02-03-2018 at 09:55 AM.

  2. #2
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    Hi Leandrah,
    Thanks for using the questionaire here and the pictures. Im guessing based on how long your fish have been dealing with issue that they probably have flukes. These are very common in discus and unfortunately very hard to eradicate..

    The polyguard you are using should knock them back in numbers but because of their lifecycles they tend to spring back up.

    Having a tank with substrate makes treating parasites more challenging as well.

    Did you see any improvement at all with the Paraguard?

    There are several treatment choices for dealing with flukes to consider. The first one I would suggest is a course praziquantel..Though their have been cases reported of resistance to the med...its generally an inexpensive and safe medication to use that is highly effective on flukes. I would only use pure praziquantel. You can find it at places like jehmco.com That would be my first suggestion if the polyguard does not work for you.

    This is unrelated but I would also suggest that you bump up your feedings to at least 2 times a day or more. Your smaller discus will benefit greatly from it.


    hth,
    Al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    Hi Al,
    Thank you so much for your help, i really do appreciate it.

    I didnt notice a difference with the Paraguard, would it be more effective in treating the Gill Flukes than the Polyguard? I was also wondering if a salt bath would help at all?
    I will definitely look at the medication you have suggested, it is a bit of a problem trying to find that stuff here (South Africa), but i will see if they are able to deliver here.

    I will bump the feedings up, as you have suggested (Thank you for that)
    So the Polyguard might help with the flukes but it wont eradicate them despite its usefulness on parasites?

    I have also just seen this on the medication you suggested, would this be something to look at here if i cannot order it in?
    "What I do is purchase a tray of ocean nutrition frozen food.(Take a type of food all of the fish will eat) I have had great results with brine shrimp or mysis. Then I go to the local vet and get 1/2 tablets of biltricide (it contains 600mg of praziquantel). I press out all the cubes and defrost the food crush the tablets and add the two together until it becomes relatively disolved. Pour it back into its original tray and refreeze! Then serve it as a meal and there you go... They may spit it out a few times, but they get the necessary dosage!!!"

    Again, thank you for your help
    Last edited by Leandrahwarren; 02-03-2018 at 10:17 AM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    If you remove the gravel your treatments will be more effective. It will also make for an easier clean up if you plan to bump up your feedings to get some bulk on those little guys. You can always add the gravel back in the future after things are under control and your little discus have grown a bit.

    Before removing your gravel you want to ensure that 1) it has been regularly stirred in your previous cleanings so there is def no toxic gas build-up under it 2) you monitor the parameters to ensure that any loss of beneficial bacteria living on the removed gravel doesn't negatively affect your water 3) take it out in stages with your next couple water changes 4) do larger % changes afterwards and more often if the ammonia/nitrite spikes as a result of the removal, while the filter Benefical bacteria grows in numbers to make up for what was lost in the gravel

    I thought my discus had flukes forever when I started out. I used a few rounds of prazipro and it seemed to work, no more scratching or flicking! It has praziquantel in it also.

  6. #6
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    I didnt notice a difference with the Paraguard, would it be more effective in treating the Gill Flukes than the Polyguard? I was also wondering if a salt bath would help at all?
    I will definitely look at the medication you have suggested, it is a bit of a problem trying to find that stuff here (South Africa), but i will see if they are able to deliver here.
    The paraguard should be effective but you may not have seen anything immediately. When a fluke feeds, its literally latched on to the fish with hooks , this is a major irritation and open the fish to infection. When you kill the flukes, they hooks often remain for a while. Im guessing thats what happened in your case. The polyguard may appear to work better because it also contains and antibiotic that is treating the bacterial infections at the site of the parasite. Thats pure speculation on my part though.



    So the Polyguard might help with the flukes but it wont eradicate them despite its usefulness on parasites?
    Most treatments for flukes require prolonged treatment. For instance every other day over the period of 11 days is over use.. Many have done this for 21 days. The idea is to catch the eggs as they hatch. Unfortunately its not precise science. Really your best bet would be to get in touch with a fish pathologist if any are near you.


    I have also just seen this on the medication you suggested, would this be something to look at here if i cannot order it in?
    "What I do is purchase a tray of ocean nutrition frozen food.(Take a type of food all of the fish will eat) I have had great results with brine shrimp or mysis. Then I go to the local vet and get 1/2 tablets of biltricide (it contains 600mg of praziquantel). I press out all the cubes and defrost the food crush the tablets and add the two together until it becomes relatively disolved. Pour it back into its original tray and refreeze! Then serve it as a meal and there you go... They may spit it out a few times, but they get the necessary dosage!!!"
    THis method is good for when you are treating tape worms, also a use of praziquantil. For flukes you just need to add it to the water.

    As you are in South Africa, you may also want to try and locate flubendazole. It works very well also. Just do not use Fenbendazole it has bad side effects in Discus.

    Salt dips would work, but you would need to put them in a new clean tank to be 100% sure there were no eggs.
    hth,
    al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    Thank you so much Kyla
    Is this the same thing you are suggesting? - because i can get this here
    https://www.googleadservices.com/pag...9aACCDE&adurl=

    I'm not worried about toxic gas because i stir the gravel up a lot when i do every water change - I will look at taking the gravel out if i have to, but right now i would rather try and find an effective treatment before resorting to that - The tank is so beautiful in my living room and i like the setup This being said, if i cannot get rid of the flukes then i will do whatever is necessary.

    Could you please also look at the Biltricide thing? - I am not sure if it would work or how much to use. Thank you for helping me out

  8. #8
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    Leandrah Warren

    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    Thank you Al,
    I just want to make sure with regards to this:
    "This method is good for when you are treating tape worms, also a use of praziquantil. For flukes you just need to add it to the water." - Would i be able to use the Biltricide tablet and just add it to the water or would i have to make sure that the Discus ingest it? - Also, would this method work for the Gill Flukes?

  9. #9
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    Billtricide is Praziquantel Leandrah, You can crush the tablets and dissolve in some water and add it to the tank. The only problem is its probably going to be expensive.

    hth,
    al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  10. #10
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  11. #11
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    Leandrah Warren

    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    Thank you so much Al, i see that we can get it here in South Africa so i will either try a vet or a Doctor. Would i be able to ask you what dose to use on a 72 gallon tank? Also, would the dose be once off?

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    A very interesting thread, it seems to be highly effective. I am definitely going to get my hand on some Biltricide, I just need some help with the dosage please

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    It looks like the Billtricide is 600 mgs per pill. You will want around 2.5 mg/liter tank water. Thats based off the Pure Prazi medicine I have here. Your tank is 274 Liters.. 2.5mgs X 274 liters = 685 mgs per treatment, so a little over a pill.

    You will want to repeat the treatment everyother day for at least 5 treatments...large water changes before. It should not hard the biofilter but monitor it just incase.Sometimes these pills contain binders and fillers that can trigger a bacterial bloom so best to keep the tank clean.

    hth,
    al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  14. #14
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    Leandrah Warren

    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    Thank you so much Al, i'm so appreciative. I'll let you know how the treatment goes.

    Thanks again!

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Discus - Help Please!

    Good Luck!
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

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