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Thread: Discus Pair Problems, Help!

  1. #1
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    Eric

    Default Discus Pair Problems, Help!

    3/31/18
    Dear forum members,
    My name is Eric and I will be turning 14 in a couple months. This is also my first real post. I run one 29 gallon discus breeding tank with my Red Cover pair, and a second ~20 gallon tank which currently holds one 3” Yo-Yo Loach. I enjoy fishkeeping very much and find it really interesting. Anyways, I am having a difficult time with water changes (and resulting problems) for my discus and am asking if you have any advice or suggestions.
    My setup: 29 gallon bare bottom breeding tank with one Aqueon 10 Hang on Back filter with DIY sponge mod from Aquarium Co-Op (I don’t use cartridges). Nothing inside the tank except my fish, my filter, a breeding cone (sometimes), and an Aqueon Pro 250W Heater. I 1previously used the $7 e-Bay which was a very bad choice for long term use. I feed DIY frozen food (40% Extra Lean Ground Beef, remaining ingredients in equal parts of Spinach, Tilapia, raw+frozen Shrimp) and Hikari frozen bloodworms. My water in Southern California often has about 0.5-1.0 ppm of nitrite and some nitrates at around pH of ~7.0 Therefore, I have been running it through my RO membrane to make sure the nitrate and nitrite levels are acceptable for my discus. I test my tank using the Tetra 6 in 1 Test Strips, but I have not been able to get a good reading for nitrates because the pad always turns brown, not shades of pink. I haven’t purchased another kit yet because I don’t know which one is reliable anymore. My water change water mix is 75% RO to 25% tap with one teaspoon of aquarium salt added per 30 gallons. I mix the water in my RO barrel outside with my 800 L/H pump for about 15 minutes before it is pumped into my tank. My pair has bred a dozen times before and successfully laid and hatched them, but not raised their young above the size of a dime. They have not bred for months. My male (bigger fish+more orange fish) has constantly been bullying my female (smaller fish+blue ring on outer body) for what I am assuming is him wanting her to breed. I have made an acrylic divider to separate them whenever he swims up and nips at her body. Sometimes, my female discus will go to the top of the tank, in the back right corner next to my filter, and try to hide there until put the divider in again. Both my female and my male don’t act like like they did before, but mostly my female.
    I have made a few mistakes with this tank before, like on two occasions, I was using water from my unheated RO barrel and the water was about 45 degrees in barrel, 65 degrees in aquarium vs normal 83-84 degrees. My fish legitimately turned a shade of bleached purple and were on their sides gasping at the surface, limp. After those incidents, I have been boiling 3 pots of water and mixing them in gradually for water changing. The pots were pre-cleaned of any residues and were scrubbed until I was certain they were clean for my fish. There was another time where my male discus jumped out of the tank in the night and was on the floor for at least a couple hours. I think that with my mistakes, their immune system is down, and they might have internal parasites. They are not as interactive as they were and they appear to have sunken stomachs. I am considering a treatment of API General Cure at least, and/or IchX and/or API E.M. Erythromycin.
    My problem is that after every time I do my standard weekly 60% water changes, my fish usually get incredibly pale or super dark, their stress bars show up (though this past month I have not seen them without stress bars), and they just float at the bottom of the tank for a few hours with minimal movement. Their immune systems are down, and they are not acting normally.
    I have considered that there might be new water shock because the water parameters don’t match identically so I have been very reluctant on what to do. I would prefer using simple heated tap water (with Seachem Safe for dechlorination) if I could, for tank stability, but don’t know what the best option is considering the nitrites in my tap water. When I first started this tank back in January 2017, I followed The King of Diy saying that stability was better than chasing the ideal parameters that always fluctuated. But, I think that was more geared to pH and not nitrites. I didn’t want to do water changes because of how much stress it put on my fish so I was looking at using algae scrubbers, tank refugiums, small aquaponics setups, filtering water through chemical media like API Nitra-Zorb, deep sand beds, water lettuce, and a whole boatload of other methods. If that wasn’t enough, I also spend about 3 hours doing my water changes every week, trying not to shock the fish and pumping the water in very slowly. Also, I am very restricted in what I can purchase for this tank because I’m a kid.
    My passion is discus keeping (and fish keeping), but it is getting harder and harder to keep them with these stress problems, and time and monetary constraints, but mostly not knowing what to do, or whose Youtuber/forum advice to follow. In the end, I really want these guys to be happy and healthy but just need help. Thank you in advance.

    The pictures are on this sharable link https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing


    Thank you so much,
    Eric D

  2. #2
    Registered Member SNap0283's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Pair Problems, Help!

    My first question is do you age your water before a water change? You want to let the water circulate and heat for 24 hours before doing a water change. This lets the water off gas and oxygenate. This will help balance the water parameters with what is already in the tank. Usually you will see a pH swing after aging water, but there are also a bunch of other parameters we don't measure for which will equalize during this time. Since it seems the stress comes after a water change the water you are adding would be my primary concern.

    The fish may have fallen ill from the stress of water changes but if they are still eating and there is no obvious sign of an infection I would not treat them yet. Get the water sorted out and they will likely bounce back on their own. In my experience if discus are still eating well they recover themselves.

    Also discus can go "off cycle" and stop breeding for weeks or months, so that part could be normal and I would use the divider until they start to flash and do a breeding dance at each other through the glass, it may take weeks or longer but be patient.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Discus Pair Problems, Help!

    SNAP0283, thanks for the response. I generally let my water sit for a 1-5 days depending on when I turn on my RO and when I do my water changes. So, I would run my RO during the weekdays and do my water changes on the weekends. Also, I don't have a heater in my storage barrel because I heat it up just before my water changes with the 3 pots of boiling water. I wonder if it is absolutely necessary to heat constantly because of extra energy consumption (barrel is outside and un-insulated) and the upfront cost of purchasing another heater (my aquarium stand is a bedroom nightstand...I can't easily pay another $50). As for circulation, I now have a tiny 3W pump running 24/7 at the surface of the water for oxygenation, and 24 hours before my next water change, I will turn on my 800 l/h pump for circulation. Another question, how do you accurately test the pH? On my test strips, it says, "Note: buffering capacity should be at least 120 ppm for accurate pH reading." If my RO is working correctly, it should have a TDS of less than 10 ppm. Again, thank you in advance.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Discus Pair Problems, Help!

    Thanks for the response, SNap0283. Before each water change, the water sits in the barrel for a few days (1-5+) depending on the time of my water change. I will usually run my RO during the weekdays and do the water change on the weekends. As for heating, I don't have a heater in the barrel and instead depend on the boiling water pots I mix in right before a water change. Both added energy consumption and the upfront cost of a new heater (or two) keep me getting them. For reference, my stand is an old bedroom nightstand that was free, I can't easily afford another $50. I am also now circulating the water for 24 hours with my 800 l/h pump in addition to my tiny 3W pump at the water's surface (for surface agitation) which runs 24/7. I have a question though, how should I accuratley test the pH? On the Tetra Test Strips bottle, it says, "Note: buffering capacity should be at least 120 ppm for accurate pH reading". If my RO is working, then it should be under 10 ppm. Anyways, thank you for your help.

  5. #5
    Registered Member SNap0283's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Pair Problems, Help!

    I would post in the water section. It seems like there is a problem there and that is not something knowledgeable enough in to comment.

  6. #6
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    george melendez

    Default Re: Discus Pair Problems, Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Cover Discus View Post
    Thanks for the response, SNap0283. Before each water change, the water sits in the barrel for a few days (1-5+) depending on the time of my water change. I will usually run my RO during the weekdays and do the water change on the weekends. As for heating, I don't have a heater in the barrel and instead depend on the boiling water pots I mix in right before a water change. Both added energy consumption and the upfront cost of a new heater (or two) keep me getting them. For reference, my stand is an old bedroom nightstand that was free, I can't easily afford another $50. I am also now circulating the water for 24 hours with my 800 l/h pump in addition to my tiny 3W pump at the water's surface (for surface agitation) which runs 24/7. I have a question though, how should I accuratley test the pH? On the Tetra Test Strips bottle, it says, "Note: buffering capacity should be at least 120 ppm for accurate pH reading". If my RO is working, then it should be under 10 ppm. Anyways, thank you for your help.
    API test kit for PH will give you a better more accurate PH reading. Also, if you want to keep Discus you have to be able to afford all of there needs. A heater to heat your reservoir water is essential, you are warming your water at the last minute so you are using water that is not aged or acclimated. Kudo's to you as you are very young and just reading your response I can tell you are a very intelligent young man, logic just says there is something happening with your water, you'll need to test every aspect of it til you nail the problem, which means you'll need to test for nitrites ammonia GH and KH and then use a water treatment on the water you store before using it.

  7. #7
    Registered Member SNap0283's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Pair Problems, Help!

    Actually yes Geo is absolutely right. Warming the water at the last minute does not work. The gasses have not reached equilibrium for the temperature of the water which will effect many parameters. The water must be aged at the heated temperature until the pH evens off. Depending on water chemistry that could be 6-12 hours or might take a full 24. This isn't always the case but seems to be for you since you are having a problem that is linked to the water you use for your water changes.

  8. #8
    Registered Member SNap0283's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Pair Problems, Help!

    As for test kit, a lot of fish shops will test water for you. Bring your water there and let them test it. If the readings are accurate ask which kit they use and buy that one. Some are better than others and if something about your water makes it not test accurate then that might be a good way for you to find out a test kit that will work for you.

  9. #9
    Registered Member pastry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Pair Problems, Help!

    Eric, try at least one more water change per week if not two more. I saw that you're 14. The goal you need to shoot for is easier/quicker water change method. Buy "safe" powder to use with your tap. Also, tap water (area dependent) seem to be more stable during warmer parts of the year. RO is a good practice but that's pretty time consuming and you may not need it during warm parts of year. With a 29 gallon tank it's got to be killing you doing a 3 hour water change. Huge props to you using RO but (after learning more details) it might be better on you and the fish to do 3 faster wc's a week with aged tap water and safe powder since their urine, poop, and scraps may bring water parameters down so far that by the time you do your once a week water change then its a big shock.
    -Elliot

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