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Thread: Discus not forming pairs

  1. #1
    Registered Member LoGeek's Avatar
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    Default Discus not forming pairs

    I have a 450l bare bottom tank with some driftwood and 10 adult discus.

    They seem very healthy and they have never been sick or stressed in any way.

    Now they are something like 21 months and there are no signs of pairs forming. No aggression, no two stick together, no cleaning surfaces or spawning... Why not?

    I wonder what factors can play a role here? Is something in the setup wrong? Too many fish?

    Something I can do to trigger pairing and breeding?

    Filip here at the forum told me I mighy be unlucky and they could all be the same sex...! But the probability of that should be 1/1024 since they were all completely randomly picked at Stendker breeding facility!

    I've grown them out myself from 4-5cm with good food. Now when they are adults I'm feeding two times per day, alternating between diy sea food mix, tetra bits and FDblackW.

    I've been changing water 20% 5 days/week and 50% the other 2 days. I've tried changing with colder water without any results.

    Some pictures:








  2. #2
    Registered Member pastry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    Honestly I know what the odds are especially since you looked them up but you may very well have all the same sex. That or you might have one or two opposite sex that just don't want to put out! Meanwhile I have you tried doing a water change with cooler water? Also for some reason if I just feed Frozen bloodworms for a few days straight then mine tend to spawn. At least I think it's the Frozen bloodworms but if somebody told me that then I would say that's dumb. Last thing I can think of is go by a proven female because you look like you have a good number of studs in there. And if they aren't studs then they are some big girls!
    -Elliot

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    Registered Member SNap0283's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    You have calculated correctly. The odds are 0.19% they are all 1 sex. That being said 1 person in 5000 are going to get all the same sex, maybe you are that unlucky. If you raised those yourself from 4-5cm then you did a wonderful job so I wouldn't say housekeeping or water quality have anything to do with it. If you have another tank I would separate them out into groups of 5 for a week or two then put them back together and move the tank around. If you don't have an extra tank I would just move things around and try the cold water again, this time if possible mix in some R/O water. Other than that every couple of weeks move things around and hope for the best. If you have my luck then that 1 PB will be your only female and you will have a bunch of peppered babies. That's the best I can suggest maybe some of the more experienced members can weigh in.

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    Registered Member Pardal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    Jorgen
    In my experience even same sex tend to exhibit spawning behavior, when the triggers are implemented, like cooler water temperature etc. (have two almost certain are males , that clean and do passes ,of course never has seen any eggs)
    I will recommend safe good quality live food , like a clean cold water condition live black worms, or enhanced (spirulina, selcom etc) live adults brine shrimp.
    This in conjunction with don't do WC for 3 o 4 days or even 5 days , and them do a 50% WC with cooler and softer water, to which you add just a few drops of ph down, nothing major you are no looking for target ph or anything just a few drops to make it lower than your usual water. This have work for me with stubborn pairs.
    Also will you share your water parameters like GH, KH or TDS if is easier for you, may be that is the answer.
    Last edited by Pardal; 04-02-2018 at 01:47 PM.
    Breeding , interest and goals Wilds Heckels and Cuipeuas and a few Domestics pairs with occasional fry as well as Angels fancy Plecos , corys and shrimps.

  5. #5
    Registered Member LoGeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    Quote Originally Posted by SNap0283 View Post
    If you raised those yourself from 4-5cm then you did a wonderful job so I wouldn't say housekeeping or water quality have anything to do with it.
    Thank you! It means a lot to me hearing that, since I'm not experienced with discus and always a bit anxious about water and food quality.

    And thanks to everyone giving me great advice.

    I will definately try to move the driftwood around. There's no point in adding a breeding cone when there's driftwood right?

    I've tried lowering temp at water change from 28C to 25C with no luck.

    So frozen bloodworms or live blackworms might help.. but is there any risk of pathogens in these?

    Separating them in two tanks sounds interesting. I have an empty Juwel Lido 120l that I can move a sponge filter to from the main tank. But how many can I put in it? Only two and hope for luck or five of them cramped in there?

    So are the males usually larger? 9 of my my 10 fish have always eaten a lot, but their adult size differs a lot and also how thick they are seen from the front. One poor fish is tiny and stunted because it hurt himself as young and can't eat properly...

  6. #6
    Registered Member LoGeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    Quote Originally Posted by Pardal View Post
    Jorgen
    In my experience even same sex tend to exhibit spawning behavior, when the triggers are implemented, like cooler water temperature etc. (have two almost certain are males , that clean and do passes ,of course never has seen any eggs)
    I will recommend safe good quality live food , like a clean cold water condition live black worms, or enhanced (spirulina, selcom etc) live adults brine shrimp.
    This in conjunction with don't do WC for 3 o 4 days or even 5 days , and them do a 50% WC with cooler and softer water, to which you add just a few drops of ph down, nothing major you are no looking for target ph or anything just a few drops to make it lower than your usual water. This have work for me with stubborn pairs.
    Also will you share your water parameters like GH, KH or TDS if is easier for you, may be that is the answer.
    The conductivity is 28 ms/m. Not sure what tds that translates to. KH is around 3. GH I have no idea.

    What 'ph down' is best to use?

    I read in some old thread on the forum that Rooibos and Lipton black tea bags can be used to trigger spawning. Is it safe and does it lower pH? How many cups of tea do I pour in the tank?

    Adult brine shrimp must be safe to use if I hatch and raise them myself I guess. But it seems like a lot of work to raise them to adults...

  7. #7
    Registered Member LoGeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    dH is 6, but I don't know the GH. Not something we measure over here...

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    Homesteader RogueDiscus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    +1 on nice job raising them and nice looking tank. I'd encourage you to enter that tank shot or similar in our current photo contest.
    I'll also second Julian's suggestions. For some reason, assuming the water's good already, going a few days without a change seems to get them more active (comfortable?), then the slightly cooler clean water. I haven't tried the pH lowering, but it makes sense to me. I might also suggest a breeding cone or similar "natural" surface like a rock face, possible in a corner that a pair could try to claim.
    Very nice fish. Good luck.

  9. #9
    Registered Member LoGeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    Thank you for kind words!

    I'll keep up daily large water changes this week, rearrange driftwood and put a cone in a corner.

    Next week I'll wait a couple of days without any water change followed by a large cooler change.

  10. #10
    Registered Member LoGeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    I'm afraid of a pH crash if I start messing with acid and my kH is only 3. pH around 7.

    What 'pH down' is recommended and how much do I use?

  11. #11
    Registered Member Pardal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    I used Top fin ph decreased, I want to emphasize that I am not looking for any ph specific , just a 4 or 5 drops in a 55 gallon barrel of reconstitute RO water. Believe me even that low will be detected by the fish.
    Any serious Discus breeder will tell you ph is secondary and do not mess with it. I am agree too, just want a little push , without affecting ph no even half a point. as you know ph is exponential
    For the brine shrimp is actually a late back, serendipity method specially in summer . in a plastic tub about 36" x14" I just put about 3" high low salinity 1.018 salt water, I add the leftover of what is left when I made brine shrimp for the fry. the point is to use less and no to over crowd it. I feed spirulina powder every couple days, also brewest yeast the stuff that is use to add to salads. I shake 1/8 of tsp, or yeast with a pint of fresh water and add to the tub, summer is the best time as I can keep them out side in about 3 weeks you should have adults,(but you can start to harvest earlier week and half) and you can add new bbs , every once in a while if you harvest to often, but if you mantain low salinity the will produce live naupoullis , so if sort of self sustaining.
    You can add areation but the bubbles should be large , no air stone. I do a WC once a month , follow a big harvest leaving a minimum amout of adults.
    For the Rooi Bos . I use for the benefits, make the fish lively , and healthier over . of course this should help with reproduction. but I personally haven notice a difference in spawning , Other teas that is use is the one from Sea Almond Leaves, other call them Indian Almond leaves or Ketapan.
    If I was you I will try to get high quality pea moss, or the mud kind turba , which is accessible in forest in Northen countries like Sweden, you probably will be able to get really good stuff.
    Just a little research and you probably will be able to find it , just a suggestion.
    Last edited by Pardal; 04-03-2018 at 08:08 PM.
    Breeding , interest and goals Wilds Heckels and Cuipeuas and a few Domestics pairs with occasional fry as well as Angels fancy Plecos , corys and shrimps.

  12. #12
    Registered Member Pardal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    Quote Originally Posted by LoGeek View Post
    dH is 6, but I don't know the GH. Not something we measure over here...
    GH, general hardness, it could be what you call dH, no sure either . your GH as the name indicated it counts everything. so besides Calcium Carbonate, that you figure it out with KH, GH is important because count the magnesium the second component that affect water hardness, some people use TDS and divide the number by 10 for a raw estimate. I like that method only for the tap water, but when it comes to RO or reconstitute water it might be misleading . I have pairs spawn in TDS of 130, and the GH is being just 3 degrees or 53.7 ppm. Yes GH is quite important, along with KH with is basically your buffering capacity.
    Breeding , interest and goals Wilds Heckels and Cuipeuas and a few Domestics pairs with occasional fry as well as Angels fancy Plecos , corys and shrimps.

  13. #13
    Registered Member LoGeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    Great advice and help Pardal!

    Does anyone have thoughts on how I can use my 120l tank (~30 gallon)? Can it be a good idea to try to sex a male and female and move them? It's too small for several fish I guess. Maybe I should start a "Sex my discus" thread and post some close up photos...?

  14. #14
    Registered Member two utes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    Quote Originally Posted by LoGeek View Post
    Great advice and help Pardal!

    Does anyone have thoughts on how I can use my 120l tank (~30 gallon)? Can it be a good idea to try to sex a male and female and move them? It's too small for several fish I guess. Maybe I should start a "Sex my discus" thread and post some close up photos...?
    First of all you have done a great job raising your group to this point, and can feel your frustration on them not pairing up. At this age of 21 months they should well and truly have by now. As others suggested you may have been unlucky by having all the same sex...possibly females, but who's to know. I don't think starting a thread to sex your fish is going to help you one bit. You have tried changing water temp' and parameters which can be trigger points to get them to spawn, and even if you do have females you would think that they would show some breeding behavior even without a male in the tank.

    You can either enjoy the beautiful fish that you have or if you want to go down the breeding track, start with another group of juveniles or mix up some of the ones you have with new fish of the same age and size.
    Seeing discus breed and raise young is a wonderful experience, which l have just started to experience myself recently.

    Good luck in achieving your goals.
    We're here for a good time...not a long time

  15. #15
    Registered Member SNap0283's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus not forming pairs

    Im not sure I would throw in the towel yet. As others have noted even if they are all one sex they should shoe breeding behavior. If all females you would constantly have eggs all over the tank. Even if all males they should do the shimmy shake and clean a spot. I would keep doing what you are doing and give them time. Move things around and play with the water very slightly, but breeding behavior will show eventually. Ive never heard of a full tank of discus not pair up and never show any signs.

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