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Thread: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

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    Default Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    After years of failing to grow plants successfully in my discus tanks I'm considering investing in a CO2 kit for my 125g show tank. My biggest concern is the act of pumping a gas in to the tank which I know from reading can, if the concentration isn't correct, harm and even kill the fish. Can anybody advise me of a good, safe and effective, system off the shelf that I can set up and not worry about as I don't want to risk the fish, some of which I've had 10 years however I'm sick of my Swords being reduced to small weak leaves and other plants just gradually dying back. What I don't want is some large and commercially sized gas canister becoming the center piece in my lounge. Would appreciate some help and advice. B

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    Homesteader Altum Nut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Well I'm no aquatic plant expert by any means but did have success when I had planted tanks. I did have a Co2 system going and as for unsightly co2 tanks in plain view...there are smaller 5Lb tanks available which can be tucked away.
    I'm not sure in what ways you were unsuccessful but did you have the proper lights? Many mistakes are made when plant roots are buried to far in substrate and wonder why the rot. Amazon Swords is one that fits this cause to die off.

    To stay in line with your question...YES co2 dump is very possible. Automated co2 systems can fail where needle valve on the controller can stick open and if it happens during the night when lights go out and when plants release co2 you may end up with a tank full of dead fish in the morning.
    I'm hoping the plant geeks chime in to offer advise on current systems on the market today as I've been out of plants going on 10 yrs now.

    ...Ralph
    Last edited by Altum Nut; 04-14-2018 at 07:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Thanks Ralph however that really doesn't inspire me with much confidence as I've suffered like most with heaters sticking over the past 25 years and wiping out fish let alone risking gassing them! My substrate is not deep and it's not that I've killed the Swords they just end up small ie 3" high and they live, but don't thrive. What about liquid fertilizers that claim C02 properties? Cost isn't an option safety and reliability is key.

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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Branch , the first and the most important factor for growing plants is the light source .
    You can grow many plants with just quality light and regular WCs with fresh water . Rhizomes like echinodorus needs deep and rich soil to root , that's why many people pot them in discus tanks .

    What kind of light do you use and how much watts lumens do you use ? Whats your daily Photoperiod duration ?
    What's the height of your 125 G tank ?
    Maybe its just too deep and needs more light than you currently have .

    As for CO2 injection , just buy a solid Dual stage regulator and once you set it to a current flow(bubbles per second rate ) , it should stay there pretty solid and accurate .
    Co2 Solenoids are used to auto shut off the gas during nights and PH controllers comes very handy when you want to keep constant PH and gas distribution 24/7 .

    Not trying to talk you out of co2 but here is my current tank without anything else but Quality light and fresh tap water :
    IMG-258a68343a0c1d92488c175f75f50c69-V.jpg
    Last edited by Filip; 04-18-2018 at 05:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Hi Filip thank you for you post love the tank it looks great.

    To answer your questions;

    1. I have two 40W T8 tubes, but can have 3 as I have one moonlight for waking up and going to sleep. They are on for 9 hours a day.
    2. Tank is 2ft deep.
    3. Most of my plants are Echinodorus and Anubias so shouldn't be too difficult

    I've been using a liquid C02 booster by API and have tested my C02 levels and they appear to be between 20 - 30ppm which is perfect at the moment but I'm concerned this will drop once they've become established. I have invested in a rather expensive piece of kit made by JBL which comes complete even with the full cylinder and PH controller console etc.

    Questions; What size is your tank as the fish look large indicating a large bio-load so how to you manage your nitrate levels? how much do you feed the fish, I count 9 discus, and what are your daily w/c's?
    With regard to C02 is it possible to simply have the system turned on for a few hours a day rather than the same time as the lights?

    Thanks for your input.

    Branch

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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    I hope this is not breaking any rules but I found this very helpful when I was learning about CO2.

    http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/26...-id-share.html

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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Quote Originally Posted by Branch View Post
    Hi Filip thank you for you post love the tank it looks great.

    To answer your questions;

    1. I have two 40W T8 tubes, but can have 3 as I have one moonlight for waking up and going to sleep. They are on for 9 hours a day.
    2. Tank is 2ft deep.
    3. Most of my plants are Echinodorus and Anubias so shouldn't be too difficult

    I've been using a liquid C02 booster by API and have tested my C02 levels and they appear to be between 20 - 30ppm which is perfect at the moment but I'm concerned this will drop once they've become established. I have invested in a rather expensive piece of kit made by JBL which comes complete even with the full cylinder and PH controller console etc.

    Questions; What size is your tank as the fish look large indicating a large bio-load so how to you manage your nitrate levels? how much do you feed the fish, I count 9 discus, and what are your daily w/c's?
    With regard to C02 is it possible to simply have the system turned on for a few hours a day rather than the same time as the lights?

    Thanks for your input.

    Branch

    Insufficient light is your main problem , as I suspected .
    You need to at least triple your light source just to get to the minimum of "1.2 watts per gallon" zone which is the light demand for the least demanding group of plants , such as Anubias . Even More if you want to keep other species .

    You better invest in new T5 fixture with 2 to 3- 54 to 80watt tubes or install 10-20 5-10wats power LEDs if you are serious about having a low tech planted tank . You are already half way there with your Pricey Co2 Kit investment just need to work on your light too.

    Co2 levels should be constant throughout the whole photoperiod . Fluctuating CO2 levels during the photoperiod may lead to algae issues .
    Since your Kit already have a PH controller just set it to 20 ppm Co2 and leave it there 24/7 , day and night .

    @Pooljap is right . You can find a lot more info about this stuff on plant oriented forums or FB groups.
    Try forums :Barrreport, Planted tank.net , UKAPS or search for quick answers on "High tech planted tanks " FB Group.


    Now for my tank .
    Its a 65 Gal. Tank with 9 grown -6 inch discus + 50 tetras and yes it is overstocked . I should get rid of 2-3 discus to stay on the safe side , but Im not yet brave enough to make that choice and give away my babies .
    I filter the water with Big size / 4 trays , 500 Gph filter filled with bio filtration and I change water 3 times a week , always 70-80% WC.
    I fed only 1-2 times a day , limited ammounts ,with tetra bits as staple diet , and some beef heart as a treat occasionaly , right before the water change .
    I never have more than 10-20 ppm Nitrates with this bioload and this routine so far .

    For more info ., spec. and photos of my tank you can check out my thread here :

    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...growout-thread
    Last edited by Filip; 04-19-2018 at 09:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Pooljap I'll take a look at the link thank you.

    Filip WOW! just spent 30 minutes looking at your thread great tank and I enjoyed looking at the grow out to see the wonderful specimens you have now. Over the years I've had mixed results with growing out my discus, often due to being over excited and buying too many thereby giving me headaches with over stocking, but recently I've been having good results especially with my Wilds once I'd wormed them and they started feeding properly. Are yours all eating again, didn't look at the cause as I ran out of time?

    I must be over feeding mine as I have less of a bio-load than you and 125 Imperial gallons, larger than US gallons, as opposed to your 65g and I can't keep my nitrates down as low as yours with 30g water changes with RO daily!

    Will upgrade my lights to T5's then not a big issue I used to have 5 hallide lights on my 300g marine tank for the hard corals now that was some expense until a tremor cracked the tank glass and it blew half my house away, fish all survived in rock pools so I was able to save them by putting them in my holding tanks, prompting the insurers to refuse further cover if I chose to have a commercial sized aquarium, their words, in a home.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Quote Originally Posted by Branch View Post
    Pooljap I'll take a look at the link thank you.

    Filip WOW! just spent 30 minutes looking at your thread great tank and I enjoyed looking at the grow out to see the wonderful specimens you have now. Over the years I've had mixed results with growing out my discus, often due to being over excited and buying too many thereby giving me headaches with over stocking, but recently I've been having good results especially with my Wilds once I'd wormed them and they started feeding properly. Are yours all eating again, didn't look at the cause as I ran out of time?

    I must be over feeding mine as I have less of a bio-load than you and 125 Imperial gallons, larger than US gallons, as opposed to your 65g and I can't keep my nitrates down as low as yours with 30g water changes with RO daily!

    Will upgrade my lights to T5's then not a big issue I used to have 5 hallide lights on my 300g marine tank for the hard corals now that was some expense until a tremor cracked the tank glass and it blew half my house away, fish all survived in rock pools so I was able to save them by putting them in my holding tanks, prompting the insurers to refuse further cover if I chose to have a commercial sized aquarium, their words, in a home.
    Thanks for your compliments Branch.
    Mine catch some very nasty disease after I recklessly put a plant from another tank without a prior proper sterilization . That happened in September when they were 9 months old and they barely ate for 2 -3 months period . That incident stall their growth and left them were they are now at 6 inch mark . If it wasn't for that I'm pretty sure they would have got another inch or two by now .
    They regain their full appetite and all eat well from November till this moment.

    You should check your sand /substrate and filter material cleanness cause they can collect a lot of dirt and raise nitrates even if you WC regularly.
    They should be kept very clean by regular siphoning and using prefilter on the filters intake .
    You can try doubling your WC % too . That should help keep nitrates in check .

    Two 80 Watt T5 HO or VHO Osram or Phillips tubes with reflectors on them to point down the light should be enough light to operate a low tech planted tank and one of the cheapest alrlternative for your problem.

    As for growing Echinodorus , they are heavy root feeders and require deep and rich substrate , so maybe potting them in small and hidden 3inch pots would be your best option to keep the bottom minimal and clean and yet grow big and healthy echinodorus jungle along with your discus .
    Last edited by Filip; 04-19-2018 at 06:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    That's a big price to pay for such a minor error, understandable if you introduce an non quarantined fish but not a plant! Well done for solving the problem. Out of interest how did, in a nutshell, you cure the disease in a planted tank and what was it? (I know you've probably set this out in detail in your thread but just an abbreviated version would suffice.

    I've got two stunted discus from a batch I bought in 2010 I know given my bioload I should have been more ruthless however I can't bring myself to do it as if they've survived 7 almost years as runts who am I to play God!?

    My filter and substate, gravel 2 - 3" deep inclining front to rear so that Echinodorus have sufficient depth, are cleaned regularly, filter every 4 weeks with pre-filter weekly (its an Eheim Professional II canister filter with a back-up ready to switch over should there be a failure or power cut for over an hour), and my gravel vacuumed deep twice a week. My nitrate levels are 10ppm however the problem I was having was the inconsistent readings I was having with the API nitrate test kit. The Interpet tablet test kit I use as a marker is consistent as it doesn't rely on shaking and drop size whereas the API can vary on the same test plus the lower levels have almost identical colors on the test result card.

    I'll be going to the LPS today to buy the T5s or equivalent it depends what they stock, still no sign of the C02 system albeit at $750 it's going to be big shipment.

    Over the years I've had mixed results with Echinodorus with sometimes seeing them grow out the top of the tank whilst others shrinking to 4" leaves, but never lost them altogether. If I'm honest with myself I can almost chart their weakening to times when I've been a little lax, due to immense work pressure, on maintenance and attention to feeding or lighting. I don't think I told you but my tank is in my office at work, it's quiet and I get to see them all day which can be a real treat when I feel stressed and need a calming environment I just crash out in my leather lounger and watch them. The other benefit is that when I'm away on holiday or business I have my employees there to feed them and monitor their condition, tank parameters and even change water what more could I ask for? Branch

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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Hi Branch, you don't need a co2 kit to grow swords and anubias. It's only really needed for more demanding plants that need a lot of light, and these two only need low light. As Filip suggests, get to the low end of what you need to grow plants. I would personally forget T5 though. They work well, but you can pick up an LED set and save money in the long run. You need to get a set that outputs 6500k on the colour temperature. This refers to the position of the sun, and 6500k is equivalent to the sun being at it's highest point, so best for plant growth. The wattage output will be relative to your tank size and reputable brands will already give the correct level, as well as lumens. Get the right size set for your tank and you're good to go. Get some tabs for your substrate and follow the instructions for them. Add liquid ferts, but only half the recommended dose, just to see how they get on. You might even need to decrease them if the swords start shooting up quickly. You can carry on dosing the co2 replacement, but it's not necessary. The balance between light, tank size and ferts are what matter, and it's trial and error. Get some frogbit if your discus start getting edgy with the brighter light.

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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Quote Originally Posted by Branch View Post
    That's a big price to pay for such a minor error, understandable if you introduce an non quarantined fish but not a plant! Well done for solving the problem. Out of interest how did, in a nutshell, you cure the disease in a planted tank and what was it? (I know you've probably set this out in detail in your thread but just an abbreviated version would suffice.

    I've got two stunted discus from a batch I bought in 2010 I know given my bioload I should have been more ruthless however I can't bring myself to do it as if they've survived 7 almost years as runts who am I to play God!?

    My filter and substate, gravel 2 - 3" deep inclining front to rear so that Echinodorus have sufficient depth, are cleaned regularly, filter every 4 weeks with pre-filter weekly (its an Eheim Professional II canister filter with a back-up ready to switch over should there be a failure or power cut for over an hour), and my gravel vacuumed deep twice a week. My nitrate levels are 10ppm however the problem I was having was the inconsistent readings I was having with the API nitrate test kit. The Interpet tablet test kit I use as a marker is consistent as it doesn't rely on shaking and drop size whereas the API can vary on the same test plus the lower levels have almost identical colors on the test result card.

    I'll be going to the LPS today to buy the T5s or equivalent it depends what they stock, still no sign of the C02 system albeit at $750 it's going to be big shipment.

    Over the years I've had mixed results with Echinodorus with sometimes seeing them grow out the top of the tank whilst others shrinking to 4" leaves, but never lost them altogether. If I'm honest with myself I can almost chart their weakening to times when I've been a little lax, due to immense work pressure, on maintenance and attention to feeding or lighting. I don't think I told you but my tank is in my office at work, it's quiet and I get to see them all day which can be a real treat when I feel stressed and need a calming environment I just crash out in my leather lounger and watch them. The other benefit is that when I'm away on holiday or business I have my employees there to feed them and monitor their condition, tank parameters and even change water what more could I ask for? Branch
    I have put out all the plants decor and sand and medicate them in a Bb tank for 2-3 months. when the problem was resolved I pit back the sand and plants .Funny thing was that almost all of my plants survived in a bucket for 2-3 months in a cold november temps. on my balcony . How resilient they must be .
    My discus took a lot of meds and treats along with daily 80-90% WC in a course of 3 months
    .
    I started with PP , then a course of API quick qure , then salt dips and baths , then furan and lastly metronidazole .

    As for your light choice , you don't have to spend extra cash buying lamps in a Pet store.
    You can buy lamps and all the necesary equipment in a home depo or any commercial light store .They would be lot cheaper there .

    Just stick with reputable brands like Osram , Philips or GE and calculate the overall Wattage or lumen output of your light fixture to match the required watt/ lumens per watt ratio for low tech planted tank( That is 1.2 watts or 40-80 lumens per gallon of tank volume ).
    Last edited by Filip; 04-24-2018 at 03:44 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Quote Originally Posted by lastflea View Post
    Hi Branch, you don't need a co2 kit to grow swords and anubias. It's only really needed for more demanding plants that need a lot of light, and these two only need low light. As Filip suggests, get to the low end of what you need to grow plants. I would personally forget T5 though. They work well, but you can pick up an LED set and save money in the long run. You need to get a set that outputs 6500k on the colour temperature. This refers to the position of the sun, and 6500k is equivalent to the sun being at it's highest point, so best for plant growth. The wattage output will be relative to your tank size and reputable brands will already give the correct level, as well as lumens. Get the right size set for your tank and you're good to go. Get some tabs for your substrate and follow the instructions for them. Add liquid ferts, but only half the recommended dose, just to see how they get on. You might even need to decrease them if the swords start shooting up quickly. You can carry on dosing the co2 replacement, but it's not necessary. The balance between light, tank size and ferts are what matter, and it's trial and error. Get some frogbit if your discus start getting edgy with the brighter light.
    Just a little correction Rob. Color temperature/ Kelvins don't affect plant growth and photosynthesis, at least not in a level worth mentioning.
    The most important parameters on a light source affecting plant growth are Light intensity ( PAR,PUR , Lumens ) and light wavelength (blue and red light radiation of the spectrum are used for Photosynthesis much more than the green radiation ).
    CRI and Colour temp / Kelvins are only important for our viewing pleasure and expressing the colours of fish and plants more naturally in our eyes .
    Last edited by Filip; 04-24-2018 at 03:47 AM.

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    Registered Member lastflea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Quote Originally Posted by Filip View Post
    Just a little correction Rob. Color temperature/ Kelvins don't affect plant growth and photosynthesis, at least not in a level worth mentioning.
    The most important parameters on a light source affecting plant growth are Light intensity ( PAR,PUR , Lumens ) and light wavelength (blue and red light radiation of the spectrum are used for Photosynthesis much more than the green radiation ).
    CRI and Colour temp / Kelvins are only important for our viewing pleasure and expressing the colours of fish and plants more naturally in our eyes .
    Hi Filip, yes I agree light intensity is more important, but 6500k gives balance between white, red and blue, so I'd disagree that it has little consequence. Some people prefer bluer light at around 10000k, and still manage success in planted tanks, others prefer 4000k. Surely if plants are looking more natural, it's because they're getting a more natural source of day light at 6500k? My advice was intended to simplified and PAR, PUR and lumens do tend to complicate things. 6500k is a very good starting point, and as mentioned, the lumens are pre determined by the manufacturer based on how wide the tank is. If I've annoyed you in any way, my apologies, that wasn't the intention...

    Branch, I just realised you've bought a co2 kit for $750? Honestly, this isn't needed for swords and anubius. Root tabs are key to swords, not co2. And the right light of course. Good luck, what ever you decide

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    Default Re: Help Needed with CO2 Set Up

    Quote Originally Posted by lastflea View Post
    Hi Filip, yes I agree light intensity is more important, but 6500k gives balance between white, red and blue, so I'd disagree that it has little consequence. Some people prefer bluer light at around 10000k, and still manage success in planted tanks, others prefer 4000k. Surely if plants are looking more natural, it's because they're getting a more natural source of day light at 6500k? My advice was intended to simplified and PAR, PUR and lumens do tend to complicate things. 6500k is a very good starting point, and as mentioned, the lumens are pre determined by the manufacturer based on how wide the tank is. If I've annoyed you in any way, my apologies, that wasn't the intention...

    Branch, I just realised you've bought a co2 kit for $750? Honestly, this isn't needed for swords and anubius. Root tabs are key to swords, not co2. And the right light of course. Good luck, what ever you decide
    Filip/Lastflea thanks for the input. I did buy LED in the end 6500K white, red and blue (Interpet Tri Spec High Output LED system for 5" tank) amazing difference plus the 3 T8s are still there to boost the spectrum. The discus, as opposed to being freaked, seemed to enjoy the additional lighting everything is coming together with Nitrates now under 10ppm. I've not got the C02 system yet and will monitor the results as things stand at the moment. One question; how much light intensity is lost through condensation trays over the tank I remember my marine tank was open and the halides were very effective especially with the accropora?

    Filip I must take my hat off to you for the diligence you applied treating your fish it must have been an anxious time, not to mention time consuming. Branch

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