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Thread: Water change schedule

  1. #1
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    Default Water change schedule

    Hello everyone! New to the forum and soon to be a new discus daddy ( Sunday I'm going up to see Hans). I'll be picking up 8 discus probably in the 2.5-3" range. I have a couple of quick questions, nothing too hard. They will be going in a 125 gallon tank with two sunsun 704 canisters (rated optimistically as I understand it at 525gph each), 2 250w aqueon pro heaters and a couple of tanks mates (2 polypterus, a ghost knife, a rope fish and a hujeta barracuda) none of which will bother the discus.

    First question is with such scarse stocking in a bare bottom well filtered tank will I be fine doing water changes every 3 days. Anyone see any problem with that? From my 10 years of fish keeping experience it doesn't seem logical to do more than that with such a low gallon to stock ratio.

    Second question is we are on well water but I plan to mix it with RO for ideal parameters. Last time I tested my tank the pH was 7.5 but that I believe was before the rescape(gutted the whole tank in prep for the new arrivals). I can get better numbers on faucet and tank params when I get home from work tomorrow. If I post those could you all recommend what mix percent would be best?

    And third, and I'll probably ask Hans this as well but I like opinions, if Stendker discus are the hardiest strain(family?) why do we still do incredibly frequent WCs? I've never had any fish that required or benefitted from daily WC. That included our angels that we used to breed which breed some of the healthiest fry and that was with weekly WC and salt. Yep, we added salt, I know I know taboo lol

    Thanks everyone for your help!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    Hello M00n,
    1. I would think that 2 WC per week (being at minimum a 50% change) with that tank size, filtration, and stock level would be sufficient. More WC is always better though.
    2. From what I’ve gathered from my use of RO water mixtures is consistency being the most important. You don’t want wild pH swings from inconsistent mixing. When I did RO I was doing a 50/50 mix (7-7.5pH) and my discus seemed to do well. I live in Texas and have pretty hard water. Domesticated discus can thrive in various pH water though. I’ve heard people raising them in levels as high as 8.5. Consistency again is the key here.
    3. When it comes to water quality discus demand the cleanest if you want them to be large and healthy. What I’ve learned is Discus are pretty susceptible to illnesses if kept in subpar water quality no matter where they come from. All I know is all discus came from some of the cleanest water on earth so in order for them to reach their potential you have to mirror those conditions.

    Hope this helps

  3. #3
    Silver Member Willie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    8 X 3" discus will likely get lost in a 125 gal tank. When you go to Hans' place, you'll get a better understanding of how discus are kept crowded. If you don't have a smaller tank, I recommend you block off part of the tank or lower the water level.

    As for water condition, my recommendation is that you do not play with water chemistry. Do water changes as frequently and as much as you can. The amount of filtration is completely inconsequential.

    Welcome to the hobby, Willie
    At my age, everything is irritating.

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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    Brandon, thanks for your response. Just to clarify, to anyone who may read this, I'm not aiming to argue or anything like that. I just like logic so I ask lots of questions until I find a logical solution. With your first point I would think such large water changes would disrupt the balance and keep the tank from being able to stabilize and age over the long term. My concern with the thought of very large frequent water changes is it essentially negates the purpose of the filters we use. We are all taught that the biology of a tank helps maintain harmful levels of ammonia and so on in the filter cycle process and once cycled the bacteria will continue to break everything down into harmless particles. These can build up and the easiest way to deal with them is regular water changes. BUT, if we are not giving the bacteria time to do its job then why even have it in the tank at all? I can see where smaller daily water changes makes sense in most instances as it is just replenishing any minerals used by the fish. Again though why add filters that will manage ammonia and it's by products if we are just going to maintain them ourselves?

    With your third point, and again none of this is meant as an argument just a morbid amount of curiosity, I don't know if you are familiar with the Stendker line of discus, but the Stendker family has been breeding their discus in the local German municipal water to increase hardiness and their ability to adapt to a wide variety of water parameters. If that's the case do they still do massive water changes daily and swap the tank for every potential piece of poop or uneaten food? I do understand their is a difference between parameter and quality.

  5. #5
    Homesteader Adam S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    For growing out young fish, filters ought to be thought of as the backup plan. Almost all fish in the hobby grow larger if given daily water changes, but few grow as visually poorly as discus if given sub-optimal care. Those crappy swords you see at most pet shops can get 4"+ standard length if given the discus treatment from a young age (even larger for some strains: bricks, Hamburgs, etc.).

    Point being, filters make waste products less toxic but they don't remove organics, excess bacteria (the bad kind) or any of the other stuff nitrogen kits don't test for. The biological tank and seasoned aquarium water thing is for those who want to spend less time with their fish and are okay with a mediocre result. Nothing wrong with that, just putting it out there.

    From what I remember, Stendker uses RO for spawns and tap for everything else. Their system relies heavily on Mattenfilters. They only change 10-15% daily through a drip, but water is a lot more expensive there (you should see some of the water reconstituting filters the German fish geeks have). Asian breeders have access to cheap, soft water, so their approach is different. Some don't even run filters but change large amounts once or twice a day.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post
    8 X 3" discus will likely get lost in a 125 gal tank. When you go to Hans' place, you'll get a better understanding of how discus are kept crowded. If you don't have a smaller tank, I recommend you block off part of the tank or lower the water level.

    As for water condition, my recommendation is that you do not play with water chemistry. Do water changes as frequently and as much as you can. The amount of filtration is completely inconsequential.

    Welcome to the hobby, Willie
    So probably section out a third of the tank for them? And are you saying you would not recommend cutting the well water with RO water?

    P.s. I still play Pokemon go. I'm level 29.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam S View Post
    For growing out young fish, filters ought to be thought of as the backup plan. Almost all fish in the hobby grow larger if given daily water changes, but few grow as visually poorly as discus if given sub-optimal care. Those crappy swords you see at most pet shops can get 4"+ standard length if given the discus treatment from a young age (even larger for some strains: bricks, Hamburgs, etc.).

    Point being, filters make waste products less toxic but they don't remove organics, excess bacteria (the bad kind) or any of the other stuff nitrogen kits don't test for. The biological tank and seasoned aquarium water thing is for those who want to spend less time with their fish and are okay with a mediocre result. Nothing wrong with that, just putting it out there.

    From what I remember, Stendker uses RO for spawns and tap for everything else. Their system relies heavily on Mattenfilters. They only change 10-15% daily through a drip, but water is a lot more expensive there (you should see some of the water reconstituting filters the German fish geeks have). Asian breeders have access to cheap, soft water, so their approach is different. Some don't even run filters but change large amounts once or twice a day.
    Adam...you've made me paranoid about the rest of my tanks...so daily 20% changes would be ideal and then taper that down as they get older? As for water mix I guess I should probably do some comparisons of water parameters to figure out what the best ratio would be. Honestly if we had a water softener on the house I wouldn't even bother with the RO, but we have very high deposits of iron in our well and it's pretty hard water so I want to tone it down some for their sake.

  8. #8
    Homesteader Adam S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    Nothing to be paranoid about, just a time allotment. I have a couple tanks of Endler's that receive 50% water changes once a week. They eat like piranhas 3x a day and produce enough fish for my angels to enjoy some live food every now and then. I have zero plans to up their maintenance schedule so they can grow another 1/4" before becoming cichlid food. On the other hand, newborn swords live better than I do for the 3-4 weeks of their life: 6-8 feedings, bbs twice and a 90% water change every day. I want them at their best, so I put the time into making it happen.

    Your tap is probably fine as is, but invest in a water filter if you are concerned. You can buy the housings and and hook them up to your tap water with garden hose fittings. 1-2 sediment filters (5 micron is good) and a carbon block will handle things like iron.
    As an example:
    - 2 x 10" filter housings with 1/2" NPT ports https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/rever...canisters.html
    - 1 x sediment filter https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/10-pu...nt-filter.html
    - 1 x carbon block https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-c...-5-micron.html
    - 2 x garden hose adapters (3/4" FHT x 1/2" MIPS and 3/4" MHT x 1/2" MIPS) https://www.plumbingsupply.com/pvc-by-size.html#hose
    * Brass ones are fine but more expensive. Swiveling PVC ones available at the box stores are garbage.
    - 1 x 1/2" PVC nipple/riser to connect the housings https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-2-in-x...8082/100156878
    - couple garden hoses

    You can probably piece together something cheaper than this, just trying to clarify what I meant by water filter.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    +1.

    Totally agree with you Adam. I am a new discus keeper too. I am so lucky to discover this forum and learn all the mistakes other beginners made. Be willing to do daily water changes. This is the real key to success. A daily water change of at least 90%. I like to start by using a cloth to wipe down the surfaces inside the aquarium I then drain all the water I can, rinse the filter media in the old water, and then refill the tank with water of the same temperature. Right now I have a group of 20 6 weeks old discus in my BB 65 gal. They eat like a pig all day long and I feel them like 8 times a day and they still want more. They are so healthy and I am so happy

    20180507_212559.jpg20180507_164046.jpg
    Last edited by eugenefish; 05-08-2018 at 12:45 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    Sectioning off 1/3 of the tank for your 3" discus would be ideal. Small discus in a large tank will often get lost and cannot find the food. Discus, particularly Stendkers, are typically crowded into grow out tanks, but get daily water changes - if not more often. Large tanks are spectacular for fully grown species, but are more difficult to handle large water changes for growing out discus. My grow out tanks are typically 40 and 75 gallons for that reason.

    Good luck with your journey, Willie
    At my age, everything is irritating.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    the Stendker family has been breeding their discus in the local German municipal water to increase hardiness and their ability to adapt to a wide variety of water parameters. If that's the case do they still do massive water changes daily and swap the tank for every potential piece of poop or uneaten food? I do understand their is a difference between parameter and quality.
    Yes most of the new age Discus breeders get the Discus used to the local water parameters, which is why people have told you that you don't have to soften your water for them and they will live at whatever your local PH is.

    The water changes are due to the fact that you are supposed to feed these discus heavily (most state minimum of 3 times a day) and its often messy foods like beef heart mixes, if you want to attain large size. Large feedings means large amount of mess in the tank and hence the water changes are recommended as when small, Discus are prone to diseases.
    Once the discus are grown up, then they can go to the regular one or twice a week water changes.

    8 X 3" discus will likely get lost in a 125 gal tank.
    Willie, what is the ideal number of 3 or 4 inch discus to get for a 125?

  12. #12
    Registered Member bluelagoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    Maybe you should try for better tank mates for your young discus or wait until they grow out some.Seems the guys you picked for tank mates,most of them will be up all night.The discus may not get the rest they need and could stress them a bit.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidan View Post
    Willie, what is the ideal number of 3 or 4 inch discus to get for a 125?
    You can easily put in 20 for a 125. The secret is to pump a lot of food, change a lot of water. Every month or so, you sell off the ugliest one. By the end of 12 month, you'll have a tankful of select grade fish!

    Willie
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    Homesteader Adam S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    I'll try to post it later when I'm home, but I remember a Stendker article/interview that said they stocked their 120 gal growth tanks with something like 500 2.5-3" juvies. Obviously not recommending that, but it gives you an idea of how tight they pack them in.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Water change schedule

    Adam, I remember seeing something along those lines on their website. They had a listing of different situations and stocking ratios. It's funny that you mention BRS as I just picked up a couple of inserts for the reactors that I use with BRS Rox carbon for my home filtration. Since it's for the WHOLE house though it gets changed weekly.

    I do have a 36 bow front that is only stocked with a few rainbow fish and a couple of small catfish. Nothing larger than 2 in. The next largest tank I have after that though is the 125. Under both scenarios what would be realistic percentages for daily water changes? Since I'm on well water cost of water isn't really an issue.

    Blue lagoon, I was actually already thinking about rehoming the larger polypterus and the Barracuda. The rope fish could be rehomed to the 36. That would just leave the smaller polypterus and the ghost knife who is my buddy and I would prefer to not let him go just yet. Once they get bigger I will move the rainbows over and pick up something like rummynose or maybe blue eyed rainbows. What is the best time to introduce tank mates? I always see lists about what fish are compatible but never anything about when to add them.

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