Kenny's Discus     Aquatic foods

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 38 of 38

Thread: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

  1. #31
    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    172
    iTrader
    0
    Real Name
    Zac

    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Ummm, you didn't give 1 piece of scientific information.

    What is a dissolved organic? These are typically organic acids, e.g. citrate, iso-citrate, malate, succinate, etc., which serve as carbon substrates for bacterial growth. Dissolved organics are not a problem, because they lead to a bacterial population growth which consumes them.

    you just contradicted yourself their, you said that dissolved organics isn't a problem, bacteria is. Than you go and say dissolved organics is what causes bacteria growth???

    Filtration systems are not at all effective at reducing bacterial count unless yours have physical pores which are < 1 micron, the size of bacteria. There are no aquarium filtration systems that can do this other than the old fashioned diatomaceous earth filters.

    Again, nothing scientific about that statement. No, you do not have to have physical pores < 1 micron, the reason for this is if you prevent bacteria growing in the first place, than their is no need to remove them. many filtration equipment do not remove bacteria, but rather prevent them from forming in the first place by outcompeting them for potential food sources. There have been countless studies showing exactly how effective many types of filtration are at reducing bacteria.

    5. Protein skimmers work by physically removing dissolve protein via bubble formation. They have no impact on bacterial load.

    Again, they remove dissolved organics, dissolved organics are what feeds bacteria growth in the first place. Aside from this, they also remove bacteria directly from the water column. Just search foam fractionation bacteria removal on google scholars and you will find plenty of studies showing its effectiveness on its removal. Also There are countless sources quoting the purpose of a protein skimmer as removing things like “water soluble proteins, amino acids, some organic dyes, fatty acids, fats, carbohydrates, tiny cells of algae, protozoa, bacteria and tiny buoyant particles of organic detritus, as well as other undesirable waste products” https://patents.google.com/patent/US5078867A/en

    6. Nitrification is NO2 -> NO3, which is part of the nitrogen cycle. You probably mean denitrification, which is NO3 -> N2. Lots of folklore about that, but denitrification is an anaerobic process - so cannot occur when oxygen is present. Lots of nonsense on Youtube about setting about denitrification filters with no scientific rigor.

    This couldn't be further from the truth. Please keep information factual and check the reputability of your sources. This is pure mythology caused from confusion behind the science of bacterial growth. Scientifically speaking, low oxygen levels know as hypoxic conditions is where denitrifying bacteria live. You probably have heard of anaerobic bacteria as being a bad bacteria that creates nitrites and should be avoided, hence why deep sand beds are considered to be harmful. However, other people refer to anaerobic bacteria as being a beneficial bacteria. The reason for this, simply it is confusion between types if bacteria and the environments that they live in. The problem is people refer to low oxygen level as anaerobic, and others refer to no oxygen as being anaerobic. I have personally read many studies on it and talked to experts in the field, including a limnologist and a marine biologist who majored in and studies bacteria. When it comes to anoxic conditions, the US geological survey defines it as being water below 0.5 milligrams per litre. This number does vary a bit depending on the source, but if you do a little research into the science fields you will find that this is where the heterotrophic bacteria reside, they can also reside in hypoxic conditions if the oxygen level is low enough. You say that no3 – n2 is how bacteria reduce nitrate level, but that could not be accurate. What happened to the other 3 oxygen atoms in your equation, and how did you get an additional nitrogen atom? What happens is anaerobic bacteria (Bacteria that lives at 0 mg/l of oxygen. cannot get their oxygen from the water source so they obtain it through their nutrient supply. So, no3 – 1 oxygen atom which the bacteria consumes = no2.

  2. #32
    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    172
    iTrader
    0
    Real Name
    Zac

    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Also, wikipedia is not an accurate source of information as it can be created and altered by anyone. but since you are so fond of it for all your information, here is some articles for you to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facult...robic_organism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobic_denitrification which says "Water treatment often relies on the activity of anaerobically denitrifying bacteria in order to remove nitrate from water.[5] However, due to the absence of oxygen, nitrate cannot be fully reduced to dinitrogen, thus nitrate remains in the water or it is converted to nitrous oxide.[5] Lingering nitrate in drinking water poses a plethora of health risks, and both nitrate and nitrous oxide have major environmental impacts.[6][7] Some hazards include, carcinogenic nitrate ions in drinking water, or eutrophication caused by oxidized nitrogen seeding Algal blooms.[5][8] Conversely aerobic denitrification can further reduce oxidized nitrogen in a less specialized environment."

  3. #33
    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    172
    iTrader
    0
    Real Name
    Zac

    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09556-9 Interestingly, just a thought to share. I know someone who has had great success growing discus in a large, commercial fish farm pond. This pond did not recieve water changes, but rather operated via green water. He had growth rates faster than what he could accomplish in an aquarium.
    Last edited by zhuls1; 06-14-2018 at 06:39 AM.

  4. #34
    Registered Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Madison WI
    Posts
    107
    iTrader
    0
    Real Name
    James Walker

    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    You and Willie are both right at least about the denitrication

    Often times in chemistry and biochemistry an abbreviated, unbalanced equation is used to emphasize the overall transformation, i.e. NO3 to N2. The use of the full balanced equation is useful to process safety scientists and few others... Denitrification consumes NO3 and generates N2, the mechanism by which is likely varied and depends on the bacterial species performing the process. Willie also didn't say that was HOW bacteria perform denitrification, simply that was the overall transformation.

    The standard oxidation potential for O2 is 1.23, nitrate 0.96 and sulfate 0.20. These are under standardized conditions but it is clear to see why life (in general) prefers to use O2 as the terminal oxidant for energy production. The will to live is strong for bacteria and when O2 is low and nitrate abundant, sneaky little bacteria start to use nitrate as the terminal oxidant for energy production. When denitrification filters go too far both oxygen and nitrate concentrations are too low, bacteria can start to use sulfate as the terminal oxidant which generates reduced sulfur species which are smelly and toxic to many animals.

    Your argument is DOC are bad and there are ways to get rid of them:
    Remove stuff before they break down into dissolved organic carbon by using filter socks to remove particulate
    Remove stuff and DOC by using a freshwater protein skimmer
    Carbon which is quickly over whelmed
    An electrolysis system which seem to operate similar to an ozonator often used in marine setups

    I agree with all of this.

    I think there is another way and it is what Adam touched on regarding the mattenfilter. It depends on an fairly universal axiom that if you can make energy from it then there will be a bacteria that will eat it. You can argue the validity of this but I think it would hold true for the types of DOC's we observe in our tanks. Mattenfilters (and all biological media) operate via biofilms, diverse, resilient, complex, symbiotic, heterogeneous bacterial populations. Mattenfilters are notable for the size of the surface area suitable for biofilm formation. Now, whether or not it is enough to reduce DOC's to levels which don't impact Discus growth I don't know however in the same way that we seed filters with the right types of bacteria for the nitrogen cycle we might eventually be able to find the right types of bacteria to remove DOC's. I think seachem pristine and API ecofix are the first steps on the way to solving this in the same way we have solved the denitrification issue.
    Last edited by JamesW; 06-18-2018 at 04:14 PM.

  5. #35
    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    172
    iTrader
    0
    Real Name
    Zac

    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Hello James, I appreciate your input and agree with most of what you said. However, in regards to the matten filter, the problem is it catches waste, where it stays and can break down. Basically, whilst bacteria can reduce dissolved organics, it likely creates as much dissolved organics as it reduces. In addition to it catching organics preventing it from being removed by other means, the waste on the filter drastically reduces the filters efficiency effectively minimizing the surface area that nitrifying bacteria can utilise. But this could be overcome by regular cleaning like how we treat sponge filters. Perhaps that is why stendker reccomends a matten filter?

  6. #36
    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    172
    iTrader
    0
    Real Name
    Zac

    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    http://www.diskuszucht-stendker.de/g...s,index,0.html, Stendker uses them in their breeding operation, and they have been known to do very minimal water exchange. Maybe we need to be focusing on a very large aerobic surface area like what you would achieve in a matten filter? "The foam serves as the habitat for a vast array of microorganisms that include bacteria, archaea, worms, ciliates, flagellates, and many others." http://www.swisstropicals.com/library/mattenfilter/ Maybe the reason stendker reccomend so few cleanings of the filter isn't to prevent loss of bacteria but rather loss of other slower reproducing micro organisms?
    Last edited by zhuls1; 06-18-2018 at 10:00 PM.

  7. #37
    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    172
    iTrader
    0
    Real Name
    Zac

    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    When I argued against what Adam had said, I was not arguing against the use of the matten filter. Rather, I was arguing against the idea of leaving waste in an aquarium. I guess my focus was on mostly removing waste before it breaks down into DOC's, and I had not put so much thought into creating an environment which would encourage the removal of waste after they had became dissolved organic carbon. Sorry Adam, maybe you were onto something. I did not put much consideration into the micro organisms that thrive in biological filtration besides bacteria. I guess bacteria, algae and organisms such as copepods, daphnia etc are all beneficial and should be taken into consideration when comparing filtration methods. I had not realised that it would harbour these denitrifying bacteria, I had always assumed they would have to high of an oxygen level to be able to do that. Very interesting. Thanks for the info Everyone, it has been very educational. I do think discussions like this is ultimately what leads to advancements in the hobby. Has anyone tried running very large matten filters on their aquarium?

    Also, in regards to products such as seachem pristine and API ecofix, I have heard of people using drain cleaners as they utilise the same bacteria and are much cheaper. personally, I prefer a more sustainable, balanced system approach that does not require frequent dosing of bacteria and/ or chemicals to maintain a healthy ecosystem.

  8. #38
    Registered Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Madison WI
    Posts
    107
    iTrader
    0
    Real Name
    James Walker

    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Great points Zac! In my sump I have 3" thick pieces of Poret foam going 10 - 20 - 30 PPM in fineness. The 30 ppm sheds brown heavy particulate that I vacuum out but otherwise I don't touch them and have noticed no change in the water resistance over ~6 months. I introduced copepods and can seem them wriggle through the pores of the 10 ppm foam but mainly they live in/amongst the seachem matrix I have right at the start of the sump and occasionally feed them to the discus. Same deal with red cherry shrimp I introduced into the tank and eventually they made it into my sump. They act as a buffer if I overfeed they will eat the food that gets down into the filter and then will grow/reproduce then I get to feed them to my fish!

    I agree that the frequent dosing of Ecofix/Pristine isn't ideal. My point was more that once the nitrifying bacteria are established they don't need to be dosed. Maybe/hopefully/wishfully eventually the right kind of bacteria will be identified that break down the harmful DOC's and are able to establish a stable viable population in the filters. Occasionally I observe an oily film accumulate in my overflow. I simply wipe it with my finger and it gets sucked into my sump and I never see the oily residue in the return side of my sump so maybe...???

    FYI just a plug for Poret foam and mattenfilter type setup. I'm a huge fan. Love the set it and leave it approach. It's worked out well for me.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Cafepress             AquaticSuppliers.com