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Thread: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

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    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
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    Default Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Frequently, I have seen the question raised, why do we do all the water changes. I myself have asked that question, unfortunately no one seems to know why we do all the water changes. So, I spent months researching the ins and outs of exactly why we do them, and I have learnt a tremendous amount about water quality. We will discuss why we do water changes and whether we can go without them, or at least reduce them to a bare minimal. I will try to keep this article simple, and easy to read.

    Firstly, a little rant from me. THE NITROGEN CYCLE ISN'T EVERYTHING? Whenever you talk to someone about water quality, instantly they assume you mean ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. Seriously, its like people don't realise other toxins exist. Constantly people are talking about the nitrogen cycle, but how often do you here someone talk about the phosphorous cycle or the carbon cycle? I have seen people attempting to raise discus in planted tanks with unreadable ammonia, nitrite and nitrate but still have problems with stunting discus. Of course the nitrogen cycle is important, but their is a lot more to water quality than just nitrogen!

    On that note, I would like to touch on how their seems to be a great deal of confusion regarding the nitrogen cycle, exactly how it works. Many seem to have made 2 groups of bacteria, Aerobic bacteria and anaerobic bacteria. Most know how the aerobic bacteria function, but most seem misinformed in regards to how anaerobic bacteria operate. The truth is, there is not 2 groups, but rather 3 groups. There is aerobic bacteria, anoxic bacteria and anaerobic bacteria. You may ask what is the difference between anorexic bacteria and anaerobic bacteria? Well put simply, Anaerobic bacteria is a bad bacteria that you do not want in your tank. Basically, its the nitrogen cycle, but in reverse. It converts all your nitrate into nitrite, poisoning your fish. Anaerobic bacteria produce in water with less than 0.05mg / l. What about anoxic bacteria? Well, it is quite a beneficial bacteria. Unlike aerobic bacteria, it converts ammonia directly into nitrogen and hydrogen, allowing the nitrogen from escaping your system entirely. Anoxic bacteria like water with between 2 mg/l - 0.05mg/l oxygen saturation. this bacteria is the best sort to filter your tank. The reason its the best? Not only does it not create nitrate as an end product, but it also reproduces faster than typical aerobic bacteria. Many manufacturers have been attempting to create filter medias that allow ideal conditions for these bacteria, However, they unfortunately seem to only have limited success. the problem? Most filter medias utilize micro pores where their is minimal water flow to achieve low oxygen levels. However, unfortunately they tend to block due to debris filling the pores, and in some cases if dirty enough can even become anaerobic on the inside, causing worse water quality than you began with. If you would like more info on the nitrogen cycle, I highly recommend watching DR Kevin Novak's video's on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E4OZLEDijU&t=171s


    Now our second point is something very very important. It is dissolved organics. I believe that more people have problems with dissolved organics than problems with nitrogen, and they don't even realise it. Whilst keeping nitrates low is important, dissolved organic carbons are even more harmful than nitrates. This is why some people are able to raise discus successfully even though their tap water has a nitrate reading of 20! Though, in saying that, I do recommend keeping nitrates below 5ppm if possible. This is also why people have trouble raising discus in a planted aquarium. even though the planted tank may have 0 nitrates, being a planted tank it has even higher dissolved organics than normal. You see, the truth is most people have problems with their discus not growing, take a no3 reading and attribute their lack of growth to the nitrate. When we go without W/C's, we tend to see a pattern of nitrates rising, so naturally we assume thats whats wrong. However, no one periodically tests dissolved organics to see they were also rising. But what exactly is dissolved organic carbon? Well dissolved organic carbon is quite a broad term, which includes carbohydrates, fats, amino acids, enzymes, hormones, phenolic compounds and more. I have heard that discus growth is stunted because of hormones in the water, and the truth is those people are not far off. However, it is a combination of all the dissolved organics that contribute to your discus's lack of growth.

    So that brings us on to the next question, how reduce the dissolved organic carbons from our system? their are numerous ways we can do so. The first way, mechanical filtration. If you use filter socks, replace them as often as possible to reduce the dissolved organics in your system. In fact, keep your tank clean in general, if you have a substrate, clean it regularly. Secondly, water changes are able to remove dissolved organics. thirdly, chemical filtration such as carbon can remove dissolved organics, however keep in mind that if you are feeding a messy diet such as beefheart, it will deplete very quickly and need frequent replacements to be effective. fourthly, use a freshwater foam fractionator, also known as a protein skimmer. And yes, you can actually get freshwater protein skimmers. These still use the same principle of using the surface of bubbles for organics to adhere too, however it produces foam using a filter medium to break the bubbles up and it decreases the speed of the bubbles, allowing for greater contact time. Another way is through a process known as Micro Electrolysis. Their is a product that uses micro electrolysis called Ocean Free Hydra, and the Ocean Free hydra Stream. These work fine, but if your crafty you could probably DIY one. Their are also DIY plans for freshwater protein skimmers floating around if you can find one. And finally, using any other method! There is plenty of ways to remove dissolved organics, just do a bit of research see what you find.

    And our final issue, oxygen. pretty straight forward, the more stocked your tank is, the higher the oxygen demand. Not just because your fish are breathing the oxygen, but bacteria are also using it. And when you stock more fish, more bacteria have to grow in order to keep up with demand. So not only do you have the fish, but also the added bacteria, its kinda a double whammy of oxygen consumption. some ways to deal with oxygen is to ensure you have good water flow at the surface of the aquarium, with no protein buildup on the surface. Also, do not overstock your tank too heavily or you may exceed your aquariums oxygen absorption capacity. Also, keep your tank clean. a dirty tank has more waste for the bacteria to consume, meaning they will multiply and consume more oxygen.

    Now, we have discussed something that I feel needed to be thrown out their. Of course, these are not the only water quality issues that may occur, there are more for example heavy metals and temperature. However, this article discusses some of the most important parameters to keep in mind.

  2. #2
    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Can we grow discus without all the waterchanges? Absolutely! Think of it this way, you can filter just about any water to be safe for your discus with an RO/Di unit? So you could put an Ro/Di unit directly on a tank with a dosing pump to dose added minerals to the aquarium. I'm sure many have heard about how Alexander had previously used a recirculating system using RO units. Well, obviously just chucking some Ro units directly on the aquarium because, well, it wouldn't last long before the prefilters were clogged. It just wouldn't be economically worth it. However, we could use a filtration such as DR Novaks Biocenosis clarification Baskets to control ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Then, we could use a combination of the methods I had mentioned above for dissolved organics to maintain safe levels of dissolved organic carbons. The question is, how easy to get a balance where enough of the dissolved organics is removed? Well I can not answer that for you. I personally am very optimistic about it. If you are to rely heavily on cleaner foods, and refrain from using beefheart, you could significantly reduce the organics load on the tank.

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    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Nice one mate. Well written. Clearing up some myths and broadening water quality knowledge.
    Aussie Aussie Aussie oi oi oi!

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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    What is humic and fulvic acid?

    I'm confused about your comment about using an RO unit? RO rejects about 2/3 of the water that passes through the membrane. You would run out of water very quickly if you used one on your tank. If you are recombining the streams then you are just running the water through the pre-filters.

    How fine are your filter socks that they are able to remove dissolved organics?

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    Registered Member Larry Bugg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Nicely presented Zac. I do need to take issue with your first statement when you say no one seems to know why we do water changes. It has been discussed often and others along with myself have stated that the biggest problem our discus face are dissolved organic carbons. Here is an example.

    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...er-Change-Myth

    I think you need to take what you have laid out one step further and talk about why doc's have the affect on our discus that they do. Doc's in the warm water column lead to growth of bad bacteria and other pathogens. I believe it is actually these that cause our discus to get sick and fail to grow to their potential. As you pointed out, the easiest and cheapest way to remove the doc's from the water it through water changes.
    Larry Bugg

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    Atlanta Area Aquarium Association

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    Homesteader Adam S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Thanks for writing this up, Zac. it was a nice read.

    In addition to what Larry said about the "why," I'd like to chime in on filter socks/mechanical filtration. Though they do trap larger bits of food and waste, most mechanical filters just smash them into even finer particles. Unless you're changing the media and doing massive water changes with great frequency, you're better off just leaving them to settle on the aquarium bottom where they can be siphoned.

    Besides the nitrogen cycle fixation, I think we've become too attached to numbers/readings in general: pH, GH, KH, TDS/EC, NO3/2, NH3/4, etc. They really aren't that important in most circumstances, but I doubt the sales of pH modifiers and hobby RO units are dropping anytime soon. The number of emails I get from people killing their new shrimp with goofy water is proof enough for me.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    One of the converted........after years of messing with different treatments to my very hard natural chalk filtered water, I bit the bullet and swapped to remineralised RO. My discus certainly told me they liked it, and have never been so sprightly and happy. Also, I can run a hospital/quarantine tank without yoyo ph. I change 30 percent daily. I think part of the problem is, with a larger setup, the water volumes start to get hard to handle, especially if your changing manually. I would never have any spare time if i changed manually, so have an autochange/clean system. There seems little interest in these systems on the forum though. it allows me to clean out the corners and under bogwood whilst the system does the hard work. Would throughly recommend one!

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    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    [QUOTE=Adam S;1289680]Thanks for writing this up, Zac. it was a nice read.

    In addition to what Larry said about the "why," I'd like to chime in on filter socks/mechanical filtration. Though they do trap larger bits of food and waste, most mechanical filters just smash them into even finer particles. Unless you're changing the media and doing massive water changes with great frequency, you're better off just leaving them to settle on the aquarium bottom where they can be siphoned.

    I kinda agree, if you put waste in fast flowing water like in a filter sock it will break down quicker. However, I did say "if" you have filter socks. And if you do not do water changes every day, it may be worthwhile using filter socks to remove wastes.

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    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW View Post
    What is humic and fulvic acid?

    I'm confused about your comment about using an RO unit? RO rejects about 2/3 of the water that passes through the membrane. You would run out of water very quickly if you used one on your tank. If you are recombining the streams then you are just running the water through the pre-filters.

    How fine are your filter socks that they are able to remove dissolved organics?
    Some Ro units are more efficient than others. Good oness can have up to 1 / 1 ratio or even better. It was more of a hypothetical scenario to debunk the reasoning that no waterchanges are impossible. Alexander Piwowaski did it, he used ro and add top up water.

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    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Bugg View Post
    Nicely presented Zac. I do need to take issue with your first statement when you say no one seems to know why we do water changes. It has been discussed often and others along with myself have stated that the biggest problem our discus face are dissolved organic carbons. Here is an example.

    I agree their are some knowledgeable people on the topic, but the vast majority seems to have no idea. Quite often, people are asked why they have to do large water changes and more often than not, they do not get any information regarding dissolved organics or information on water quality in general. On occasion their are good responses from more knowledgeable people, but these are few and far between.

    I think you need to take what you have laid out one step further and talk about why doc's have the affect on our discus that they do. Doc's in the warm water column lead to growth of bad bacteria and other pathogens. I believe it is actually these that cause our discus to get sick and fail to grow to their potential. As you pointed out, the easiest and cheapest way to remove the doc's from the water it through water changes.
    DOC's is a very broad term, describing many different chemicals. All of these can effect the fish in their own unique way, some of them affect them directly, some indirectly. Because of this, it would be difficult to describe how every single type of DOC could effect the fish. So I opted to instead focus on how we can remove them.

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    Homesteader Adam S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Quote Originally Posted by zhuls1 View Post
    I kinda agree, if you put waste in fast flowing water like in a filter sock it will break down quicker. However, I did say "if" you have filter socks. And if you do not do water changes every day, it may be worthwhile using filter socks to remove wastes.
    I was arguing the opposite. I think leaving waste on the bottom is better than trying to mechanically filter it if daily media replacement and large water changes aren't happening. Finer particles spewed into the water column allow more bacteria than larger lumps lying on the tank bottom.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Strange, when I enter "dissolved organic carbon toxicity fish" into Google Scholar all I get are studies on how DOCs actually have a protective effect against toxins.

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    Homesteader Adam S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    The ones I saw were all metal toxicity like copper and aluminum. Interesting no doubt, but I think metals are the lesser evil for most of us. The abstract of this article may be more pertinent to the growth concerns previously addressed: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...44860988900064

    "Accumulation of organic substances may be a cause which leads to the suppression of growth of fish cultured in closed recirculation systems."

    Why, who knows (maybe it's growth inhibiting hormones released by other fish ). Many suggest it's oxygen consumption by bacteria, but I've seen plenty of large fish grown with minimal to no equipment to encourage gas exchange. Not to mention, most of these devices (powerheads, airstones, etc.) introduce additional water movement the fish have to swim against (another variable). A good start to testing this stuff would be an ORP or DO meter, but applying the readings to the results would prove troublesome.

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    Silver Member Willie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Not a chemistry issue at all. Nor dissolved oxygen.

    At very low pH's in the Amazon, there's also very low bacterial activity. In fact, there's virtually no bacterial population below pH 4.5. (I used to teach this in General Microbiology Lab.) Despite the turbidity of their natural environment, discus evolved in a near sterile environment. Hence, it had to evolve a system to feed their fry. Otherwise, there wouldn't be anything to eat. Other South Americans have slime coat, albeit at much lower levels than discus. So discus cannot tolerate bioload. It's possible, but extremely difficult, to maintain such conditions in your tank. The point of water changes, which includes overall tank sanitation, is to reduce the bioload in the water. All the fancy filters in the world will not affect bacterial count. Filters, in fact, work by supporting bacterial populations via nitrification and other oxidation processes.

    Willie
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    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about water quality and waterchanges!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam S View Post
    I was arguing the opposite. I think leaving waste on the bottom is better than trying to mechanically filter it if daily media replacement and large water changes aren't happening. Finer particles spewed into the water column allow more bacteria than larger lumps lying on the tank bottom.
    I don't think you understand what I was saying. I agree with you that the waste breaking down is a bad thing, what I was saying is if you do daily waterchanges than it would be better to leave it in the main aquarium to be syphoned off, but if you do not do regular waterchanges to syphon out the waste, than filter socks may be a way of removing them from the aquarium. All a matter of nutrient export.

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