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Thread: Chronic Wasting Disease

  1. #1
    Registered Member DISCUS STU's Avatar
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    Default Chronic Wasting Disease

    Hi Everyone,

    I'm trying to get a handle on the chronic wasting disease that has plagued my fish for years, even though they're still eating. You know the pinched, withering, skinniness that persists until the fish dies.

    I'm assuming it's a parasite and don't think Prazi is the answer, I've been using it for years but to no affect. Recently I've turned to Kusuri Dewormer (Flubendazole).

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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    There are at least 7 different types of intestinal parasites that don't respond to the same treatments:

    • trematodes
    • nematodes
    • cestodes
    • acanthocephalans
    • Spironucleus
    • Hexamita
    • Coccidia

    I have some slow growers that I'm planning on moving to their own tank so I can intensely feed them. If that doesn't work then it's either a trip to the vet or I start trial and error with some treatments.

  3. #3
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    Hey Stu, check with Al. I know he treats for worms with two types of meds. I think Prazi only targets tapeworms.
    Pat
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    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    The Kusary is good but Levamasol is better. Three treatments two to three treatments apart should work. But like Pat says, Al will know for sure. I don't guess you have a microscope?
    Mama Bear

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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    I have Levamasol but have stopped short of buying a microscope. Bought it on ebay as a general dewormer. Can you advise on treatment and dosages, etc., ?

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    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    It's been so long ago that I have forgotten. I read a bunch of threads here and the dose depends on the concentration if the levamasole you get. Someone here, like Al. should be able to tell you.
    Mama Bear

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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    Hi Stu,

    I use the 100% levamisol from Angelsplus. The dosage is 2-3 ppm, or 1 gram per 100 gallons, which works out to 2.6 ppm. With this powder, if you don't have a good scale, the dosage is 1/4 teaspoon per 100 gallons.

    Do a 24 hour bath followed by a big water change, then repeat in 10-14 days. For a tough case like yours, that has been going on for a while, a third treatment after another 2 weeks is a good idea. Keep the tank floor clean to remove the eggs, which are not killed by the wormer. That is why you repeat the treatment, to allow the eggs to hatch for the next round.

    Nematodes are probably the easiest thing to diagnose if you have a microscope, and you don't need an expensive one since the eggs are visible at low power.

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    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    Thank you Dan! I will print this out and put it in my fish medicine container so I will have it on hand if/when it becomes necessary. No fish is void of parasites.
    Mama Bear

  9. #9
    Registered Member Pices's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    Thanks for posting this Stu. I’m in a similar situation with one of my fish. I treated her with metronidazole for 14 days and she maybe ate once after treatment. I was told to add salt and did that for a day, but as I reduced salt through wc and got back to fresh water she stopped eating again. I was told to do salt for 7 days and am on day three, but there’s something I’m missing and I’m not sure what to do next. I don’t want to throw one thing after another at her, but it’s frustrating as hell. She doesn’t look wasted yet, but pale and I wonder how long this will go on.
    It’s really disappointing to see it happening with someone as experienced as you. Hope we can both turn things around here.
    Patty
    If the discus are happy, I’m happy

  10. #10
    Registered Member DISCUS STU's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    Hi Patty,

    This seems to be the bane of many Discus keepers' existences. When it happens, my fish eat but continue to get skinnier, wasting disease, and it may affect one fish in a tank out of 6 or more and so one.

    You may have something else, I've dealt with this also, and for fish that are chronically not eating I've used a combination of Kanamycin Sulfate, Metro (which you've already done) and heat. Which is something that was recommended to me a long time ago and seems to work in most cases. It should be done in a qt. tank, I've used 10 or 15 gals. as I don't have a lot of extra room, and regular large water changes. A good source for Kanamycin is AngelsPlus. 7-10 days. When they start to take frozen blood worms then they're on their way. Even the faded Blue Diamond, which became grey, came back to color. It's not a guarantee but its worked for me. Severely weakened fish don't always make it through treatment, heat can also be stressful.

    Good luck.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    Thank Dan. Do I need to use a feces sample for microscope diagnosis?

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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    Quote Originally Posted by DISCUS STU View Post
    Thank Dan. Do I need to use a feces sample for microscope diagnosis?
    Yeah, you take a fecal sample and mash it a little with the cover slip on the slide. I like to check periodically for both worm eggs and flagellates (Spironucleus, a.k.a. 'Hex'). Its better if you can catch these intestinal parasites early. It seems like once they have a serious infection they are permanently weakened and more likely to be re-infected. I had some discus a while ago that were infected with both. I got lazy and let it go on too long, and they were never right after that and wasted away.

  13. #13
    Registered Member Pices's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    Quote Originally Posted by DISCUS STU View Post
    Hi Patty,

    This seems to be the bane of many Discus keepers' existences. When it happens, my fish eat but continue to get skinnier, wasting disease, and it may affect one fish in a tank out of 6 or more and so one.

    You may have something else, I've dealt with this also, and for fish that are chronically not eating I've used a combination of Kanamycin Sulfate, Metro (which you've already done) and heat. Which is something that was recommended to me a long time ago and seems to work in most cases. It should be done in a qt. tank, I've used 10 or 15 gals. as I don't have a lot of extra room, and regular large water changes. A good source for Kanamycin is AngelsPlus. 7-10 days. When they start to take frozen blood worms then they're on their way. Even the faded Blue Diamond, which became grey, came back to color. It's not a guarantee but its worked for me. Severely weakened fish don't always make it through treatment, heat can also be stressful.

    Good luck.
    Thanks Stu,
    You are so nice to help me when you are in the middle of dealing with your own issue. I bought Kanamycin when this thing started with my lil scrapper so I will try it after giving her a week to rest. Sounds like things might turn around for you. I sure hope so. Thanks again for your help. I do have her in quarantine with temp at 88. It’s comforting to talk to someone who has dealt with the same thing in the past. Hopefully our different problems will also be a thing of the past-and soon. Best of luck,
    Patty
    If the discus are happy, I’m happy

  14. #14
    Registered Member shrinkwrap's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    I would be willing to bet money that the cause of your chronic wasting disease is cryptobia iubilans and not any of the other causes mentioned. My reasons follow. It can be diagnosed by microscopic analysis of a fresh stool sample. It is easily confused with Spironucleus, a.k.a. 'Hex' even by supposedly knowledgeable researchers, per Dr. Stephen Smith who spoke at the NADA 2018 meeting last month. However, even I have learned to tell the difference.

    I am willing to help members with microscopes diagnose parasites in poop. I don’t know if your fish died of this, but I learned to diagnose cryptobia iubilans by examining stool samples and have posted videos of what that looks like. It was confirmed by a vet for me. Cryptobia iubilans parasite is a common cause of chronic wasting disease in discus. My previous post is here:
    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ase&highlight=

    At the NADA meeting 2018, Dr. Stephen Smith agreed that cryptobia iubilans is a common, if not the most common, cause of chronic wasting disease in discus. He spoke on the subject for 20-30 minutes. I believe it is one of the most common reasons people give up on discus. It is resistant to the usual treatments including all antibiotics, heat, low pH. It is a single cell flagellated parasite, not a bacteria nor a virus. Metronidazole is ineffective though often recommended. There are published veterinary articles suggesting that dimetridazole (not the same as metronidazole) and 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol may be effective.

    http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm077


    I was successful at using 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol to stop discus from dying from this infection. I confirmed a resolution of the stringy poop and a reduction but not elimination of the parasite count in the poop. These 2 chemicals are intermittently available in the US. Let me know if you need help with this.

    There is much still unknown about this parasite. We should encourage Dr. Stephen Smith and others to continue their research. The problem is there is no money in researching cryptobia in discus and other fish are not affected in the same way by this parasite. If there were sufficient money invested treatments could be easily found. This is a parasite, not cancer! Alternatively, if other scientifically minded people like me, joined together with a generous breeder to supply test fish, we could design and execute studies of the suggested treatment options with very little money invested. I can provide details for those interested.
    I would also suggest, for those who can afford it, to spend the $250-300 in a necropsy by a veterinary pathologist to confirm the characteristic granulomas in the stomach and intestines of discus suspected of dying of cryptobia. The only thing that can cause this that is currently known is mycobacterium and the pathologist knows how to tell the difference. The organism will not usually be found in a typical necropsy BTW, but the above findings are strong evidence according to the several pathologists I’ve used. One of the frustrating things about having a fish slowly starve itself to death over weeks and waste away is not knowing the cause. You can prove the cause if it’s cryptobia.
    I bought a $200 Amscope microscope from Amazon and that is what I used to examine stool samples and diagnose cryptobia. This is not a huge amount in comparison to the amount many have invested in discus. I am willing help members learn to use it.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Chronic Wasting Disease

    Quote Originally Posted by shrinkwrap View Post
    I would be willing to bet money that the cause of your chronic wasting disease is cryptobia iubilans and not any of the other causes mentioned. My reasons follow. It can be diagnosed by microscopic analysis of a fresh stool sample. It is easily confused with Spironucleus, a.k.a. 'Hex' even by supposedly knowledgeable researchers, per Dr. Stephen Smith who spoke at the NADA 2018 meeting last month. However, even I have learned to tell the difference.

    I am willing to help members with microscopes diagnose parasites in poop. I don’t know if your fish died of this, but I learned to diagnose cryptobia iubilans by examining stool samples and have posted videos of what that looks like. It was confirmed by a vet for me. Cryptobia iubilans parasite is a common cause of chronic wasting disease in discus. My previous post is here:
    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ase&highlight=

    At the NADA meeting 2018, Dr. Stephen Smith agreed that cryptobia iubilans is a common, if not the most common, cause of chronic wasting disease in discus. He spoke on the subject for 20-30 minutes. I believe it is one of the most common reasons people give up on discus. It is resistant to the usual treatments including all antibiotics, heat, low pH. It is a single cell flagellated parasite, not a bacteria nor a virus. Metronidazole is ineffective though often recommended. There are published veterinary articles suggesting that dimetridazole (not the same as metronidazole) and 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol may be effective.

    http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm077


    I was successful at using 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol to stop discus from dying from this infection. I confirmed a resolution of the stringy poop and a reduction but not elimination of the parasite count in the poop. These 2 chemicals are intermittently available in the US. Let me know if you need help with this.

    There is much still unknown about this parasite. We should encourage Dr. Stephen Smith and others to continue their research. The problem is there is no money in researching cryptobia in discus and other fish are not affected in the same way by this parasite. If there were sufficient money invested treatments could be easily found. This is a parasite, not cancer! Alternatively, if other scientifically minded people like me, joined together with a generous breeder to supply test fish, we could design and execute studies of the suggested treatment options with very little money invested. I can provide details for those interested.
    I would also suggest, for those who can afford it, to spend the $250-300 in a necropsy by a veterinary pathologist to confirm the characteristic granulomas in the stomach and intestines of discus suspected of dying of cryptobia. The only thing that can cause this that is currently known is mycobacterium and the pathologist knows how to tell the difference. The organism will not usually be found in a typical necropsy BTW, but the above findings are strong evidence according to the several pathologists I’ve used. One of the frustrating things about having a fish slowly starve itself to death over weeks and waste away is not knowing the cause. You can prove the cause if it’s cryptobia.
    I bought a $200 Amscope microscope from Amazon and that is what I used to examine stool samples and diagnose cryptobia. This is not a huge amount in comparison to the amount many have invested in discus. I am willing help members learn to use it.
    Pretty much what I suspected and suggested to Stu by pm, and gave Him Dr.Smiths contact info suggesting he send him fish.

    I suspect Cryptobia is endemic to our domestic discus populations to some degree.

    al
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