Wild Green Discus Pair Breathing Very Rapidly

[Desert Seahorse]

Hi All-This is my first post here. Though I've been keeping cichlids a long time, I have only light discus keeping experience. When I had them back in the mid 90's I lived on the east coast and the water was tailor made for them (soft and acidic).

About 3 weeks ago I acquired a breeding pair of Tefe Green Discus. Though they'd only been in a captivity since the beginning of the year, they spawned for the person I got them from. That is a viable spawn that produced fry. I paid a fair amount of money for them and put them into a pretty new aquarium with 100% R/O water (more on that later). Initially I had some water issues which I attributed towards the nitrogen cycle running it's course. First high ammonia and nitrite, and then high nitrate. I was doing 75% water changes to get things under control and now the water conditions seem optimal........to me at least. Here's the readings I've been getting the last few days:

Ammonia- 0ppm
PH- 6.4
KH- 0
Nitrate- 5-10ppm
Nitrite- 0ppm

I worked really diligently to get the water right and they seemed very stressed during the whole process with mouth and gills working hard. Now that the water parameters seem to be good, they are still rapid breathing. I have a white slate bottom with lots of driftwood. They have been better of late, but even being in a very low traffic area they bolt behind the driftwood when I enter the room. They don't eat with verve, but when I sneak into the room I sometimes catch them picking food off the driftwood. I know wild discus can be prone to gill flukes, but as they acclimated well enough in the previous owners tank to breed, I perhaps erroneously dismissed it?

A couple of other things
1-They were previously in a community tank setup with live plants, cardinal tetras, platys and I think a few Corydoras.
2-They were previously fed on a diet of mostly live blackworms. I don't have access to live blackworms, so I've been giving them freeze dried blackworms, frozen bloodworms and frozen beef heart.
3-The only other thing in the aquarium besides the slate bottom and driftwood is a Universal Rocks slim "Rocky" background that was siliconed in with Aqueon aquarium silicone.
4-Tank is a 48 gallon Jebo with the filter built into the hood. I have that filter running, plus a hang on filter (for now) and an internal filter. There is decent water movement while not being anywhere near blowing the fish around.
5-I have been using Sera "Superpeat", Seachem "Discus Buffer" and Seachem "Discus Trace"

I live in the desert in California. The water here is extremely hard and alkaline, so I when I acquired them I made sure I used 100% R/O water. I tested the water I brought them home in and the PH was a bit more acidic at 6.0 or a bit below. The temperature sits at about 86 degrees.

Lastly here's a link to a video of when they were breeding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTUpYkbLFu8

All of my other fish are extremely aggressive feeders. My saltwater butterflyfish eats pellets from my hands and splashes the tank when I walk by. My adult Altum Angels pound down flake food. I'd greatly appreciate some help to figure out what's going on. I feel I'm as stressed out as they look. Thanks

[RogueDiscus]

Is that the current tank they're in and with fry? They don't look too stressed, and if they've spawned, they must be reasonably comfortable. That said, I think you've got a lot going on in that tank. I would keep a close eye in your ammonia/nitrate readings. With the number of fish and the gravel, you could be building up the dissolved organics in the system. (Keep up the water changes) With 100% RO and that pH, you could be susceptible to a ph crash eventually. pH doesn't need to be low, that's an old idea. If it's steady and they're used to it, that's what matters. Mine is 8+. That also means there's some carbonate to stabilize the pH and for the bacteria to feed off of. Your foods are fine, as long as any leftovers are getting cleaned up.

[Desert Seahorse]

The video of them with the fry is in their old tank belonging to the previous owner (before I got them). They're no longer with all those fish. The only fish in the tank now are the pair and a baby Synodontis multipunctatus (2 1/2") who acts as the cleanup crew. Yes, I take all readings (PH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and KH) twice daily. I do not have sand. Initially it was bare bottom, but they seemed spooked so I had white ceramic tile cut to fit and they no longer see their reflection. Plus the tile down there makes it way easier to keep the bottom of the tank as clean as possible.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Richard, the first thing to occur to me is perhaps when your tank was under going high ammonia and nitrites maybe this damaged the gills of the fish. Perhaps try clean water for a bit to heal any damage caused. Also could you explain what you are using Sera "Superpeat", Seachem "Discus Buffer" and Seachem "Discus Trace" for?

Seachem "Discus Buffer" is used to lower ph but you are also using RO water right? Might be best to not use this as it could be causing the ph to fluctuate too much. This also applies to the Sera "Super peat". I would for now NOT use Sera "Superpeat" or Seachem "Discus Buffer". I would continue to use Seachem "Discus Trace" for the minerals.

So lets try clean water with minerals only and see how the fish react. Keep your water changes at 50% every day to every other day. Pre-mix your RO water with Seachem "Discus Trace" prior to adding to the tank to allow the TDS to stabilize. What is your target TDS?

Also consider adding rooiboo tea to the water. It will add tannins to the water and darken it which might help to ease the fish. Do you have either pictures of video of the fish.
Pat

[Desert Seahorse]

Gosh I hope my water conditions didn't cause any irreparable damage. If this is what happened, that's something I'd carry around with me.

Initially I got my R/O water from an aquarium store. We only have 2 non big box independents in the area. They're close to half an hour away. The PH on their R/O water was about 7.0 (neutral). So at that point I added the "Superpeat" and "Discus Buffer" to bring it down closer to the sub 6.0 PH to emulate the aquarium they were in. Than I started getting my water from a local store 5 minutes away that just sells water (mostly for drinking). The PH of their R/O water is lower at 6.5 or so. I was going to use Kent "R/O Right" as it's designed to stabilize the PH of R/O water, but have honestly not seen even the slightest fluctuation in PH between water changes.

As far as TDS goes, I must admit I'm woefully uninformed when I comes to it. In the overhead trickle filter I have two areas for pads. One side has "Polyfilter" and the other side has a "PURA Aquarium Filtration Pad". I've used Polyfilter for a long time and the PURA pad says it removes: Solids, Organics, Phosphate, Lead, Copper & Silicates. I use it for my marine tank though it's designed for both fresh and saltwater. Would these pads assist in getting the TDS where I need it be? (Just looked on Amazon and saw there's an array of TDS pens for sale-Any particular one you recommend?). What do you recommend for a target TDS for Wild Discus?

Will definitely try the Rooiboo Tea. Does it give a similar effect to the old Tetra Blackwater Extract (really dating myself)? What is a good rule of thumb? One bag per 10 gallons?

Here's two lousy videos I managed to sneak of the fish. Oddly enough, they're out more today than any other day prior since I got them. Thanks for your help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJx2WmtMX6M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YpkRGKHR2A

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Richard, I use the TDS meter which came with my RO unit so I do not have a recommendation on a specific one. They are not too expensive. I have used RO right to remin the water. I am not sure that Seachem "Discus Trace" does the same. The TDS meter will tell you. Target a TDS of 70 or so with your wild greens. The Rooibos tea will tint the water like Tetra Blackwater Extract but should be a cheaper solution. I started using Rooibos tea as the altum keepers loved it for wild altum angels. I like it with my wild discus.

I am not sure about your Polyfilter and PURA Aquarium Filtration Pad. Doubt it will help with TDS but they may filter out your minerals. Most here do not use additional chemical filtration (like carbon). However some discus keepers like purigen. Personally I use just clean water.
Pat

[Desert Seahorse]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for your quick reply. I have two questions please:

1-How much Rooiboos Tea shall I use? 1 bag per 10 gallons? Don't want to overdo it.
2-Did you have a chance to check out the two videos and if so, any thoughts? Any chance it could be gill flukes?

Thanks for your time,
Richard

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Richard, if the previous owner successfully raised fry from the pair and had no issues then the pair most likely does not have gull flukes. Lets get the water stable first then observe. What is the water temp BTW? Use a 1/4 cup tea in panty hose and allow it to sit in the water column and tint the water to your liking.

Are the gills flared? They did not look flared in the video.
Pat

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi and welcome to this forum. I agree with Pat that you do not need so many additives, clean water is 99% of what they need but, please other discus keepers correct me, I see 2 other issues:
1) no airstone. If your fish are breathing hard think low oxygen first. Get a decent dual exit air pump and get two airsones in the tank. Your filtration produces only very gentle surface agitation, the warm water discus require carries less desolved oxygen than cooler water so you need to try to saturate it as much as possible. Only if that achieves no improvement then you can think of other issues such as gill flukes.
If the airpump/airstone are too noisy (they are in my case as my discus tank is where my bedside table used to be!) you can try a small wavemaker, I use a Sunsun JVP110 - unconventional in a discus tank but it seems to benefit the fish.
2) Synodontis multipunctatus with discus???? They come from lake Tanganika where the water is hard as concrete and you are keeping them at KH 0? Also they look cute when they are small but they grow big and will definitely eat any discus fry, possibly also sucking mucus off adults and have been known to cause serious injuries. Best clean-up crew for fish tanks are humans with a Syphon - at a push sterbai Corydoras.

[Desert Seahorse]

Hi Paul-Thanks for your reply. With 3 forms of filtration I figured I'd have enough surface agitation, but the tank they were in for their previous owner did have an airstone(s) in it, so I will do that today while keeping with my 75% water changes every other day. Good idea! As for the baby 2" syno, he's from many lines of tank raised stock and is actually doing very well (he has a serious gut on him!). He's small enough where he's of no concern to them right now. Syno's have nasty teeth, so a large one would be highly problematic. For now the only sign of aggression I've seen is one time 1 of the discus took a shot at him. I have a few baby Aspidora's coming so he'll be outta there this week. At this point I'm actually not worried about a spawn as I don't believe they're anywhere near it. Getting them "happy" is my main concern. As soon as they appear like they're in good shape all other occupants will be promptly scooped out and put into another tank. Thanks again. Your advise is much appreciated.

[Desert Seahorse]

Hi Richard, if the previous owner successfully raised fry from the pair and had no issues then the pair most likely does not have gull flukes. Lets get the water stable first then observe. What is the water temp BTW? Use a 1/4 cup tea in panty hose and allow it to sit in the water column and tint the water to your liking.

Are the gills flared? They did not look flared in the video.
Pat

Hey Pat-Sorry to not reply sooner. Paul was kind enough to to offer some suggestions and I missed your reply above his. The gills aren't really flared, but there is rapid gill movement. As you probably noticed in the videos their mouths are constantly going. They do seem to be doing slightly better though. The temp is at 86. Thanks as always!

[Megalodon]

Chlorine?

[Desert Seahorse]

Chlorine?

It's R/O Water, so I'm hoping not. Can R/O water have Chlorine?

[Paul Sabucchi]

I was really surprised how much my discus seem to need good oxygenation. I do 2/3 daily WC with water that has been aged for 24 hours with a wavemaker. I did actually have an airstone in the tank (but air pump and canister filter in the room the other side of the wall) but nonetheless as the fish were growing they seemed to be breathing harder and faster as you can see from this video when they were 9 months old
https://youtu.be/J-zbp7ZTl3c
I changed the airstone to a limewood block, much finer bubbles but no great improvement. Did all the routine tests, checked gill mucus but all clear. I was quite concerned so I chucked in a small pump (100 gal/h) and they seemed a bit better, swapped for a 250 gal/h and they were even better so I got them a small 500 gal/h wavemaker and it works a treat, if I forget to put it back on after a water change after a few hours they go visibly worse. They do not appear bothered at all by the current
https://youtu.be/P0dvo7hbZms
My tank is more heavily stocked than yours so probably the oxygen is depleated a lot quicker but nonetheless I think it is worth trying first to get more oxygen to your fish

[klclayt]

My 2 cents, it looks like you put WC fish in an uncycled tank. That`s a recipe for disaster. I hope they did not suffer permanent damage. Sometimes you have to stop and start over. If you have a place to put them until you get this tank completely cycled, you should consider this. You do not have the margin of error with WC fish as you would have with tank raised or domesticated fish. Good luck. HTH...