everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

[nancyx25]

Hello all,

I have been reading you all for about a year but this is my first thread...I wish it could be a better one, unfortunately everything is going nuts in my tank and I am just about to give up.
Will try and keep this short, but since the more explanations I give can help better understand the situation, I am guessing this will be a long post! sorry about that!
purchased 10 discus about 10 months ago from a local breeder. all were about 4 inches and are all now close to 6 inches and were doing beatifully.
I have been a fish keeper for over 15 years and just got into discus as I felt ready for the challenge, but I guess I am failing miserably...

Just 2 weeks ago, a pair formed and the female laid eggs and the male fertilized. SUCH JOY! 2 days later, as expected, the eggs were gone. On the very day that a female laid eggs, another female started to have stress bars appear and she stop eating. A few days later, I noticed she had transparent mucus like poop. The male from the pair got much darker in color and also stopped eating and started to have white/transparent poop. when I noticed this, I decided to start a prazipro treatment. raised the temp a little (from 86 to 88) and added the correct dosage.

this was on wednesday. On thursday, I noticed a blue diamond had popeye. Read on the subject and tried to do 50% water change everyday for at least a week or until I see improvement.
So wednesday, 50% water change, added correct dose of prazipro
thursday: noticed the popeye on one fish. did 50% water change and redosed prazipro
friday: the fish with popeye also now had a very swollen belly. read on that subject and it is suggested to add salt to the water as it can help with the possible constipation. so started that as well...oufff this is getting a bit much for me, I can just imagine for them...
so on friday, 50% water change, redosed the prazipro, added salt at the rate of 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons.
saturday: 50% water change, redosed prazipro, added salt again to compensate for the water change. by this time, nobody has recovered or got better. the 3 fish with white poop still have it and are still not eating and the fish with popeye is actually worse as now he is also bloated.
sunday (last night), same thing, 50% water change, redosed prazipro, did not add salt as I noticed the bloated fish did start to poop, but he is still bloated, eyes are still bulgy and still not eating.
this morning I woke up to a dead fish!!!! this blue diamond that died HAD NO SYMPTOMS whatsoever. he was eating, did not have white poop, did not look sick at all. This fish however has always been very upset at every water change. He would get darker every single time I do a water change, and my regular schedule is 50% every 3 days (sometimes more) he would get darker as I am doing the water change but would return to his normal color a few hours after. could the stress of all the recent water changes have killed him? could it be the mix of prazipro and salt?

so here I am...can't sleep and completely obsessing about what is going on in my tank and how I should continue from this point...
I went from a beautiful happy group with a breeding pair, to dark stressed out fish with white feces, not eating, popeye, bloated and a dead fish. the worse part is I do not know how things got like this. I have never missed a water change, my water parameters are perfect, I have not added any new items, fish or plants to the tank yet all of a suddent all hell brakes loose! the only thing I can think of right now is that my municipal water may have new or too much chemicals or something happepend related to my municipal water as it has been very very hot and the city did give out notices that we are not to use water in excess as the levels are low...

sooo, where do I go from here? should I try metro for the white poop that just wont go away? should I let go the sick blue diamond? could he have dropsy? should I just continue with the daily water changes and salt? I am really going crazy with this situation and thought perhaps others would have a few suggestions or ideas as to what I should do to help the problem. I do have 5 other discus in there that are doing great, as if nothing is wrong. great appetite, great color, normal poop, great attitude...I am so afraid they will also get what the others have, whatever it is...

tank is 125 gallons.
sand substrate (thinking of removing it)
2 plecos
10...oh I mean 9 discus fish now
10 black fantom tetras
2 big canister filters
no plants
temp normally at 86, currently at 88
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
nitrates, do not know, out of test but with amount of water changes I am making I assume the nitrates are very low
municipal water
ph 7.4

thanks so much for listening! please fell free to add any comments, suggestions, anything you can think of!

[LizStreithorst]

It would help if you were to fill out the disease form and if you could post pictures. My question right off the bat is whether or not you age your water. If not do you know your pH swing straight from the tap and after 24 hrs of aeration in a bucket?

[nancyx25]

It would help if you were to fill out the disease form and if you could post pictures. My question right off the bat is whether or not you age your water. If not do you know your pH swing straight from the tap and after 24 hrs of aeration in a bucket?

I will post the questionnaire but concerning the water, I use water from the tap and use dechlorinator with it (API or tetra depending on what the store has). I do not let it sit, How can anyone let 75 gallons of water sit for 24 hours I do not know, but I cant manage that...I use water form the tap and treat it as I am bringing the water level back up.
I do know my ph swing, I have tested it many times prior to having discus. water comes out of the tap at ph 7. after 24 hours it is a 7.2 and 48 hours at 7.4. this is why I mention my ph at 7.4 as I have never went more than 3 days without a water change, and when measuring my ph on water changing day it is always at 7.4.
am at work right now, so I do not have pics of the sick fish or white pooping fish, but will definately add some when I get homw.

thanks so much. questionnaire will follow!

[nancyx25]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

3 fish are not eating and have transparent mucus like poop. 2 of those show stress bars and are darker in color
1 fish has popeye and bloated belly as well as not eating
1 fish presenting NO symptoms died this morning. only thing weird about this fish is he would get very dark in color at EVERY water change since I purchased him.
I do not know of anything unusual that might have happened other that the fact that everything started to go bad after a couple spawned. also, the extremely hot waether in my area might have caused the city to add or change the water chemistry...we have a shortage of water and I think the city could be using more or other chemicals than they use to. Have contacted them with no reply so far...


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

turning darker, stress bars, not eating, white feces. one fish with popeye and swollen abdomen, but he swims ok, he does not hide, his appearence has not change other than the swolen eyes and belly, his color is the same.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

prazipro - 5 day tratment as indicated on bottle
50% water changes everyday - redosing prazipro art every water change to compensate (added only the amount needed to cover 75 gallons) water changing since tuesday, so 6 days in a row now.
added aquarium salt to the rate of 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons. added 10 tablespoons on friday (dissolved in aquarium water and added gradualy in the tank) then added 6 tablespoon in the same maner on saturday to compensate for 50% water change. (actually did more around 70% water change that day)



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
as mentionned in original post - tank has around 10 months of age


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
normally 50% every 2 or 3 days.
this week, 50% everyday

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
running for 10 months - sand about 1 inch and a half, maybe 2 inches


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
do not age the water. ph out of tap is 7 right on the nose. 7.2 after 24 hours, 7.4 after 48 hours. tested it on 3rd day in tank, was still at 7.4.


8. Parameters and water source;
Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp __88___

- ph __7.4___

- ammonia reading ___0_

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading __? out of tests do not have my current reading on nitrates__

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water ___100%_

- RO water ____
9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
no, nothing added and nothing removed!

10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
tetra color granules
frozen blood worms once a week (did not give any this week)
frozen brine shrimp (did give it every other day this week to help constipation...)
home recipe (do not have beefheart in my area, made the recipe with beef liver and some chicken hearts among other thing) have been feeding this since day 1 of having them and they love it, but because I dont trust the chicken hearts that much I have not given any this week as I am trying to find the cause of all this.
dried flakes mostly for the tetras
repashy super foods for my plecos (cube dropped in bottom of tank at night, never saw a discus eat some)

11. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

will provide pics tonight.

thanks!

[Adam S]

Sorry to hear about your tank. Can't really offer you an "answer," as there are so many unknowns with diagnosing illnesses over the internet. Just some thoughts:
- Prazi probably won't do anything for your fish. Doesn't sound like a gill or tapeworm issue.
- 1 TBS/10 gal of salt is almost completely benign. "Tonic" doses start at 1 TBS/5 gal, whereas real treatment doses are closer to 1 TBS/1 gal. The plecos can handle it.
- Sounds like you have some bacterial nasties. Lower your temp. Warmer temps accelerate bacterial growth.
- Make sure to vacuum as often as you can while treating especially in tanks with substrate.

[nancyx25]

Thanks so much for your input this exactly what I need, some fresh eyes and opinions. There are so many things going on at once and i have been reading on to many subjects so I am completely lost as to what I should do next. Thanks for the salt info. Am so afraid of putting too many things in there i did go a little light on dosing it. These fish never had any meds given to them and i really dont like improvising.

[RogueDiscus]

Hi Nancy and thanks to Adam for responding to you. I'm no disease expert, but I did try to get others to see your post. I think one of the last things you said "i really don't like improvising." was great advice.

[nancyx25]

Should i be getting some metroplex? By the time it arrives the fish will have about 5 days of break in between prazi and metro. Of course i would just add it in the case the white feces are still around. Would 2 treatments so close together be too harmful on them?

[nancyx25]

Hi Nancy and thanks to Adam for responding to you. I'm no disease expert, but I did try to get others to see your post. I think one of the last things you said "i really don't like improvising." was great advice.

Thanks so much for your help. Yes i really hate this situation because i am by nature a thorough person and dont do anything without thinking twice. But in this instance unless i get a vet and pay the heavy price for a specialist to assist me i have to take decisions and try to help them or just watch them die...since i cant afford the vet i have to go with option 2 and do what i can.

[LizStreithorst]

I'd have started with 100% metro from Jhemco. Adam is correct. Prazi was the wrong choice. Pat or Al will be see your post soon. They are the disease experts. Don't do anything until you hear from them.

[jeep]

The first thing I would do is lower the temp to about 82. Adam is correct that this sounds bacterial and higher temps will accelerate this problem. He is also correct about using a higher concentration of salt. If the problem is due to the water supply, I'm not sure what you could do. If there is a large ph swing try doing 2 25% water changes several hours apart.

[snxtif]

Hello all,
friday: the fish with popeye also now had a very swollen belly. read on that subject and it is suggested to add salt to the water as it can help with the possible constipation. so started that as well...oufff this is getting a bit much for me, I can just imagine for them...
so on friday, 50% water change, redosed the prazipro, added salt at the rate of 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons.

Are we talking about aquarium salt? Wouldn't epsom salt be better for bloat?

Agreed with others on metro, though I'm not the expert (but that's what I'd do).

Anyway, treating the whole tank is so unfun (been there), that's why my 20g hospital tank was one of the best investments in my discus keeping life.

[jeep]

Are we talking about aquarium salt? Wouldn't epsom salt be better for bloat?

Epsom is good for constipation and would be ok to use as well. However, if this is bacterial then any non-iodized salt can help with infection and bacterial issues. A 50lb bag of Solar Salt from HD is much cheaper and will last a very long time...

[nancyx25]

The first thing I would do is lower the temp to about 82. Adam is correct that this sounds bacterial and higher temps will accelerate this problem. He is also correct about using a higher concentration of salt. If the problem is due to the water supply, I'm not sure what you could do. If there is a large ph swing try doing 2 25% water changes several hours apart.

thank you so much.
lowered the temp to 84 for now. and will bring to 82 by the morning. then I will wait. will not be doing any water change or adding salt or anything else tonight. I need the break and the fish do to as well and I prefer to make a good plan of action before going further and will await others opinion. I am tempted however to put my uv sterilizer on. I have one built in one of my canisters and never used it as I was afraid it would mess with my cycle, but I think it's only effective on bad bacteria in the water column and not the beneficial bacteria in the media or other surfaces. I think it could just help at this point...
I am wondering if I should continue feeding or give a day or 2 of no food to help digestion, or whatever it is creating the bloating in one fish and white feces on 3 others...
back from work now, will post pics. the blue diamond has a little bubble shape next to his right eye now, he really is not improving at all even with all the water changes and the salt. his left eye became cloudy, was not like this before i left for work. was protuding but not cloudy.

(first time uploading pics, hope it works!)

pic 1-2-3 - blue diamond with popeyes and swollen belly
pic 4 - female with stress bars, not eating and white feces, (but could not get a pic of her with poop)
pic 5 - blue turquoise male darker in color, not eating, white feces. he is the male that spawned 2 weeks ago. after the eggs were gone he darken in color and stopped eating...noticed as i was taking pics tonight he was shaking his dorsal fin a bit and stopped.
pic 6 and 7- red melon female with white feces but she does eat a bit. her color is normal and attitude as well. she is the one that laid eggs 2 weeks ago.
pic 8 is of mister boss man. there is nothing wrong with him other than the fact that he thinks he is king and can be a bit agressive during lunch time. all the other fish are in as good of a shape as he is. eating, colors normal, feces normal.


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[nancyx25]

Are we talking about aquarium salt? Wouldn't epsom salt be better for bloat?

Agreed with others on metro, though I'm not the expert (but that's what I'd do).

Anyway, treating the whole tank is so unfun (been there), that's why my 20g hospital tank was one of the best investments in my discus keeping life.

I have aquarium salt. purchased at my lfs. it's a very fine salt and dissolves quickly. do not know if the 'concentration' is any different than epson salt however. I am completly new to the salt thing in fresh water tanks! never added it before and didnt even know the benefits of it! we learn so much on forums like this!
as for a QT or hospital tank, I do have a 25 gallon for that, but because 4 out of 10 fish seem to have something, I figured I would treat the hole tank.