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Thread: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

  1. #16
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    well I had posted pics but cant seem to find them on here anymore. sorry if this is a double post, really cant find the first one with pics...

    lowered the temp to 84 for now. and will bring to 82 by the morning. then I will wait. will not be doing any water change or adding salt or anything else tonight. I need the break and the fish do to as well and I prefer to make a good plan of action before going further and will await others opinion. I am tempted however to put my uv sterilizer on. I have one built in one of my canisters and never used it as I was afraid it would mess with my cycle, but I think it's only effective on bad bacteria in the water column and not the beneficial bacteria in the media or other surfaces. I think it could just help at this point...
    I am wondering if I should continue feeding or give a day or 2 of no food to help digestion, or whatever it is creating the bloating in one fish and white feces on 3 others...
    back from work now, will post pics. the blue diamond has a little bubble shape next to his right eye now, he really is not improving at all even with all the water changes and the salt. his left eye became cloudy, was not like this before i left for work. was protuding but not cloudy.

    (first time uploading pics, hope it works!)

    pic 1-2-3 - blue diamond with popeyes and swollen belly
    pic 4 - female with stress bars, not eating and white feces, (but could not get a pic of her with poop)
    pic 5 - blue turquoise male darker in color, not eating, white feces. he is the male that spawned 2 weeks ago. after the eggs were gone he darken in color and stopped eating...noticed as i was taking pics tonight he was shaking his dorsal fin a bit and stopped.
    pic 6 and 7- red melon female with white feces but she does eat a bit. her color is normal and attitude as well. she is the one that laid eggs 2 weeks ago.
    pic 8 is of mister boss man. there is nothing wrong with him other than the fact that he thinks he is king and can be a bit agressive during lunch time. all the other fish are in as good of a shape as he is. eating, colors normal, feces normal.
    37675296_1574109686027862_1855948758370484224_n.jpg
    37673825_1574109762694521_1781678861038125056_n.jpg
    37659004_1574109799361184_9101621731331670016_n.jpg
    37311721_1565054633600034_702078379523833856_n.jpg
    37697576_1574109936027837_8180802286625226752_n.jpg
    37681251_1574109439361220_5252154603918589952_n.jpg
    37663483_1574109532694544_5256964018102337536_n.jpg
    37337313_1565050823600415_1232851374266384384_n.jpg

  2. #17
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    As far as I know, if you choose to medicate your fish (especially dose in water column), you should turn OFF UV filter,
    due to some meds are light sensitive and UV will break down the meds molecules (being destroyed without getting into your fish)

    UV filter is very useful though, but for "preventive" imo.


    Below copied from Seachem "Metroplex" homepage;

    Directions
    Dosing in Water
    Remove all invertebrates - these are extremely sensitive to medication.
    Turn off UV filters, ozone filters, and remove chemical filtration like MatrixCarbon™ and Purigen™.
    Use 1-2 measures (included) per every 40 L (10 US gallons).
    Repeat this dose every 48 hours for up to 3 weeks or until symptoms disappear.
    Water change is not just a chore, it's my life now...

  3. #18
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    Quote Originally Posted by snxtif View Post
    As far as I know, if you choose to medicate your fish (especially dose in water column), you should turn OFF UV filter,
    due to some meds are light sensitive and UV will break down the meds molecules (being destroyed without getting into your fish)

    UV filter is very useful though, but for "preventive" imo.


    Below copied from Seachem "Metroplex" homepage;

    Directions
    Dosing in Water
    Remove all invertebrates - these are extremely sensitive to medication.
    Turn off UV filters, ozone filters, and remove chemical filtration like MatrixCarbon™ and Purigen™.
    Use 1-2 measures (included) per every 40 L (10 US gallons).
    Repeat this dose every 48 hours for up to 3 weeks or until symptoms disappear.
    I have not administered metro yet, only prozipro. I had indeed removed the carbon and purigen from my filter and the uv has been off since forever as I never used it before. the prazirpo has been administered 6 days ago and still no improvement. this is why I am thinking of going with metro and also the reason I have turned on the uv. I agree the uv will probably not do much at this point. thanks for letting me know it should be off if and when I start metro, good to know! I will be purchasing it fisrt thing tomorow morning and will await suggestions as to if I should use it or not...

  4. #19
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    Hi Nancy, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the first fish pictured is not going to make it. Look close and you will see that the fish is swollen throughout the head and body. I had one do this and I was not able to save it. I think it is a massive infection in the fish. Do the eyes on the red melon seem to be swollen also?

    As suggested add the salt and please lower the temp (for now). Can you remove the decorations in the tank. Idea is to make the tank as simple as possible. It is better to treat in a bare bottom tank. I think for the rest of the fish a course of pure metro is best. As Liz suggested you can get it from Jehmco or angelfishplus. Also as suggested keep the water changes small as the water seems to be the source of stress (guessing here). Lets let the fish rest until the metro arrives.
    Pat
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening

  5. #20
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Hand Pat View Post
    Hi Nancy, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the first fish pictured is not going to make it. Look close and you will see that the fish is swollen throughout the head and body. I had one do this and I was not able to save it. I think it is a massive infection in the fish. Do the eyes on the red melon seem to be swollen also?

    As suggested add the salt and please lower the temp (for now). Can you remove the decorations in the tank. Idea is to make the tank as simple as possible. It is better to treat in a bare bottom tank. I think for the rest of the fish a course of pure metro is best. As Liz suggested you can get it from Jehmco or angelfishplus. Also as suggested keep the water changes small as the water seems to be the source of stress (guessing here). Lets let the fish rest until the metro arrives.
    Pat
    thank you so much for this! will follow your instructions but I do have a question...I have been thinking of removing the sand since my 2 plecos got bigger. they are good poopers and it would make things easy for clean up, but with this happening I put it off. should I wait until things get better to remove the sand? wouldnt it make the tank cloudy and add to the stress factor? as for the decor, i only have some rocks, 2 pieces of wood and a fake plant, absolutely no problems getting it all out, will do so first thing when lights go on!
    as for the bloated fish, yup was not optimistic for him, he has been swelling up more and more each day. started with the eyes, then they got even bigger, then the belly and today the bubble next to the eyes. if he is not gone tomorrow, will probably end his suffering with clove oil

  6. #21
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    oh, for the red melon, no she has been like this since i got her, but she does have bigger eyes than all my other fishes but then again she is also very large in size all together. she is very thick and eats a lot!

  7. #22
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    Nancy,
    I'm sorry to be late coming in on this but I was not able to get online. I want to say before anything else..
    I have been reading you all for about a year but this is my first thread...I wish it could be a better one, unfortunately everything is going nuts in my tank and I am just about to give up.
    Will try and keep this short, but since the more explanations I give can help better understand the situation, I am guessing this will be a long post! sorry about that!
    purchased 10 discus about 10 months ago from a local breeder. all were about 4 inches and are all now close to 6 inches and were doing beatifully.
    I have been a fish keeper for over 15 years and just got into discus as I felt ready for the challenge, but I guess I am failing miserably...
    That you are not failing miserably.You were doing a good job, trying to feed them well and changing their water frequently. 10 months and they were doing well. Don't get discouraged. Most people new to discus usually run into issues at some point. Some of us still run into them even after considering ourselves "seasoned"

    Its really hard to say what happened here that made your tank go from a joy to downer. My guess since you didn't have any issues and now have issues like bloat, internal infections, white feces and lost of appetite in many of your fish in one form or another is its bacterial as many of the others here have suggestion. It may also be complicated by a protozoan like Hexamita thats taking advantage of your fishes compromised system. I have a very strong suspicion the culprit that started this all off is food you feed.

    tetra color granules
    frozen blood worms once a week (did not give any this week)
    frozen brine shrimp (did give it every other day this week to help constipation...)
    home recipe (do not have beefheart in my area, made the recipe with beef liver and some chicken hearts among other thing) have been feeding this since day 1 of having them and they love it, but because I dont trust the chicken hearts that much I have not given any this week as I am trying to find the cause of all this.
    dried flakes mostly for the tetras
    repashy super foods for my plecos (cube dropped in bottom of tank at night, never saw a discus eat some)
    You have substrate and were feeding an inherently messy food.... your homemade mix with liver. I know you have fed it all along but it doesn't take much to get a bacteria established.. I have tried liver in the past as a food... far too messy even in a bare bottom tank and with your water change schedule, I think it just was a perfect storm.

    What to do...
    1) remove all tank ornaments and structures....They hide pockets of waste
    2) Normally I would say remove the sand slowly but I think you should net all the fish and either put them in buckets or another tank if you have one. Drain the original tank and remove the sand... all at once. Rinse the tank well and the filters and add the fish back. Very important, do not remove all the sand with the fish there... you could liberate some nasty substrate gas. We have had members kill their fish this way.
    3) do not feed for now.
    4) Use epsom salt
    5) See what antibiotics you are to get... Kanamycin or maracyn 2 (minocycline) or oxytetracycline., These can be used with the metronidazole without an issue.
    6) very large water changes daily, 75-80% and redose medications.
    7) no UV

    Being in Canada I know its hard to get medications but maybe the breeder you bought from has access?

    I'm sorry if this seems alot. I am only making a best guess here based on what you told us and my experiences, and you may be able to get the same results without the tank breakdown but this is what I would do. Your fish should be okay in pails and buckets if they are aerated. You don't need to scrub the existing tank or sanitize it,, just get the sand and structures out and thoroughly clean the filter.

    If you have a vet near you maybe reach out to them , the blue is probably not going to make it as Pat said, A Vet may be able to use it to narrow things down.

    hth,
    al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 07-24-2018 at 03:55 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    Calm, Cool, Solid advice. Hoping for best possible outcomes for your Discus. Keep us posted if you can.
    You’ll get through this!

  9. #24
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    thank you SOOOOO much brewmaster15 for this!
    so this is what I have done the last 2 days. temp is down at 82 as previously suggested.
    all the decorations have been removed as suggested.
    I have kept the lights very low to ease the stress.
    I had been feeding just a little for the ones that are still hungry and doing good but will stop as you recommend, but should I only stop feeding when I will start the metro treatment?

    I will do as suggested for the sand. did not want to stard this now but I like the idea of putting the fish elsewhere as I get it out.

    I completely agree with you on the homemade food. I am surprised about the liver however. I felt the chicken hearts might have been the evil in this recipe. I tried it based on other internet recipes, the fish loved it but that chicken just didnt sit well with me...but you are right about the mess it makes, never even thought about the consequences of that.

    I have ordered the metro today. thank you to all who suggested jehmco, they were extremely helpful and professional. I needed bulkheads for a new tank and never dealt with that before, had tons of questions, they were great! I am guessing the metro will arrive within 5 days.
    So I should also get my hands on(Kanamycin or maracyn 2 (minocycline) or oxytetracycline) and treat with the metro ?
    also, I should ask this only when the meds arrive, but I have seen many people that treat with metro by adding it to the food, but since my white pooping fish are not eating, I do not think this is the best method...is adding it to the water not as effective?

    I should substitute my aquarium salt with the epson salt? is the epson salt known to work better than aquarium salt?
    Should I be adding salt when I start the meds or just now until treatment?

    on the day I posted this, I was sad, exausted and felt so hopeless. You all have helped me in so many ways! I cant thank you enough...
    I had not done a water change that night. but I did go ahead and do one yesterday, a small one of around 30% and will do this again tonight.
    are the big 80% water changes only to be done during the treatment or I should start on that right now?

    thank you again for your kind words, your experiences, suggestions and help! it is more appreciated than you will ever imagine!

    ohhh, forgot about the blue diamond...he is still with us. I just cant get myself to do it. he did not get worse. it seems he is a little less bloated and the bubble next to his right eye seems to be gone, but I am definately not waiting on a full recovery. I think he is to far gone, and I will need to face it and go ahead with it...
    Last edited by nancyx25; 07-26-2018 at 12:00 AM.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    Hi Nancy,
    You will want to use an antibiotic like the kanamycin or minocycline.They are more effective against bacteria than metronidazole.The metro is more an anti-protozoan medication that has some antibacterial activity. It can work synergistically with the antibiotics mentioned in some cases.
    Metronidazole does work well in food but its also absorbed from the water. You will want to dose that at 250-500 mg per 10 gals water for 8-10 days.

    The aquarium salt is sodium chloride. Thats good for helping a fish deal with stress and as a blocker of nitrite uptake.The epsom salt is magnesium sulphate. Its a laxative... it may help your fish pass out any junk in their digestive track.In your case I would use Epsom Salt...1 tablespoon per 10 gals usually works .

    hth,
    Al
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  11. #26
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    To add to what I said, metro is very gentle on fish but the hex parasite has become very resistant to it. I would go with the higher dose and treat for at least 12 days. Many folks here go 14 days. Personally, I use 400 mg daily which, if you don't have a gram scale, works out to 1 1/2 teaspoons daily in your 125. I wish you the best luck.
    Mama Bear

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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    Quote Originally Posted by LizStreithorst View Post
    To add to what I said, metro is very gentle on fish but the hex parasite has become very resistant to it. I would go with the higher dose and treat for at least 12 days. Many folks here go 14 days. Personally, I use 400 mg daily which, if you don't have a gram scale, works out to 1 1/2 teaspoons daily in your 125. I wish you the best luck.
    hello Liz, meds have finally arrived and will get started on threatment tonight. I do have question about dosing...you suggest 1 1/2 teaspoons for 125 gallons. the bottle (100% metro from Jehmco) mentions to use 1 level teaspoon for 164 gallons. Is it your experience that using a bit more gives better results? I would not want to harm my fist, but if you have used it to this dosage with success I might try it as well.

    also, the bottle mentions to stop treatment after 3 days if no signs of improvement. What are signs of improvement, the fish start eating again and poop is normal color within 3 days? that fast?!!

    One question, should the temp be keep at 82 throughout the hole threatment or should I increase a little after a few days?

    thanks so much!

  13. #28
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    I spoke to the folks at Jhemco about dosage back when I ordered. The dose on the label is the low dose. I learned here that the parasite has become resistant to metro and that I should treat at 400 mg. per 10 gallons and asked them to convert to spoons-full for me because I don't have a gram scale that goes down to milligrams and if I did, numbers make my head swim unless I can count them on my fingers. (I'm not that bad, but close) Many people here go with an even higher dose and treat for 14 days, but what I do has worked for me. It could be that 3 days works for some fish but IME it does not work for Discus. If you see no improvement after 3 days don't worry. Keep treating while doing the largest WCs that you can manage. (out with the bad water, in with good fresh water does wonders.

    If your problem is hex alone crank up to the temp to 90 if you can. If you are dealing with a bacterial infection as well, keep the temp at 82. High temps make bacterial infections happy. High temps are hard on Hex. If you raise the temp, crank up the air, as well. High temps deplete the dissolved oxygen in the water.

    I've covered everything I can think of. If you still have questions please ask. If I don't know the answer, others who have been in the Discus hobby since time began will know. Try not to worry. You'll get this licked.
    Mama Bear

  14. #29
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    wow thanks so much! this is more than enough explanations, I am good to go! thank you again . will keep you guys posted in a a week or so.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: everything is going wrong, about to throw in the towel...

    Just wanted to wish you luck Nancy. I’ve been there and i know how disheartening it can be. Best wishes for a good outcome and kudos to you for not giving up without a fight! I like your spirit!
    Patty
    If the discus are happy, Iím happy

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