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Thread: Back in the Game!

  1. #16
    Registered Member Tshethar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Another week in and the honeymoon phase continues... basically can't help but put up some gratuitous fish pics just because...

    But before we get to that, I did think to share one thing that might be of use to some other hobbyist: my tank is not cycled, but my discus don't care, thanks to Seachem Safe (powdered form of Prime) and a large daily water change (occasionally supplemented by a smaller one). I'm feeding 6x/day on average, everything from flakes and pellets to frozen prepared foods (like brine shrimp), a messy seafood mix, and FDBW, all of which are being consumed with greater or lesser degrees of enthusiasm. By day's end I'm getting ammonia readings around 2.0 ppm, but I bring those down with a 50-70% WC with aged water to which I add Safe at the recommended dosage for detoxifying ammonia. I'm just now adding a second type of bottled bacteria after the first really didn't seem to do anything (no measurable nitrates yet), but really the only issue is the gradual buildup of some ugly, cloudy water. I say all this because in the past I started with smaller discus that didn't seem to settle in my tank and I worried that my sterilized equipment wasn't fully seasoned, so to avoid ammonia/nitrite issues I brought over an established filter from another system. While I don't think that was the cause for further problems, in hindsight I think that was a riskier maneuver than just staying the course as far as cycling and detoxing was concerned. Not tempted to do that ever again given what I'm seeing now.

    Anyway, I swear the fish are growing as I look at them, but who can tell when you see them every day? So, maybe if I keep putting up a pic every so often over the next few months I'll be able to tell. Tonight they were definitely enjoying their FDBW...

    2018-08-29 21.11.40.jpg

    I'm no photographer, so phone pics are all you will get from me, but I was pleased how nicely some of them cooperated for this one...

    BC91E3B5-3749-466F-A640-DCD87D1ACF82.jpg

    edit: oops--pick is sideways--oh well, you get the idea!

    Mod edit: pic fixed
    Last edited by Second Hand Pat; 08-30-2018 at 07:06 AM. Reason: Rotated picture

  2. #17
    Homesteader Paul Sabucchi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Thank you for the info, good to know that your discus are proving they are tougher than many give this species credit for (2mg/l ammonia!!!!). I have read of people cycling "on the hoof", just thought it required bigger water changes twice a day at least to start with.
    You are also probably right that it is easier to fix a mini-cd let than a bacterial cross. Even if I have a few well established tanks personally I prefer to start from scratch with a fishless cycle, maybe attempting to kick-start things with some bacteria in a bottle, although I am still not convinced most of them really do much. What brands have you tried? Keep enjoying your discus, they are looking good (even sideways)

  3. #18
    Registered Member Swedgin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tshethar View Post

    I'm no photographer, so phone pics are all you will get from me
    Don’t worry about it, same here. As long as you keep them coming.....

    Tobi
    Regards,
    Tobi

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Wild Blues/Browns/Reds
    Wild Heckels
    Wild Greens

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Yeah, with 150%+ daily WC, nitrogen cycling is way overrated lol.

    I mean, if you can keep that much WC, bottled bacteria wouldn't do much anyway
    since they would probably get drained out with the water.
    Water change is not just a chore, it's my life now...

  5. #20
    Registered Member Tshethar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Sabucchi View Post
    Thank you for the info, good to know that your discus are proving they are tougher than many give this species credit for (2mg/l ammonia!!!!). I have read of people cycling "on the hoof", just thought it required bigger water changes twice a day at least to start with.
    You are also probably right that it is easier to fix a mini-cd let than a bacterial cross. Even if I have a few well established tanks personally I prefer to start from scratch with a fishless cycle, maybe attempting to kick-start things with some bacteria in a bottle, although I am still not convinced most of them really do much. What brands have you tried? Keep enjoying your discus, they are looking good (even sideways)
    Thanks, Paul, I appreciate it, and also I suspect you are generally right about bigger water changes to avoid ammonia problems in the absence of Safe. I honestly wasn't sure whether to trust the product claims about eliminating ammonia toxicity, so I've been watching the fish, and I'm happy to say nothing about their behavior has suggested to me that I need to change more water. I would if necessary, but I can only store about 30 gallons in a brute trash can so anything beyond that is more or less going to be out of the tap. That isn't a problem per se right now--last I checked, no pH swing and not the season for microbubbles--but I still notice the fish are more likely to go through some acclimation with a big water change, and the whole point is to reduce stress on them. So, I've been trying not to overdo it. Anyway, so far, so good.

    On the bottled bacteria, more below; this time I tried FritzZyme 7 as I read some older threads on the forum that suggested it might be the best option. So far, nothing doing. Now using Seachem Stability, which frankly I've tried before to little effect. Hard to think Dr. Tim's, MicroLift, Tetra or whatever else is going to yield something all that different, but I don't mind throwing my $10-$15 dollars toward moving things along. Just glad that it doesn't seem to matter much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swedgin View Post
    Don’t worry about it, same here. As long as you keep them coming.....

    Tobi
    Alright, Tobi, it's a deal, so long as you keep those pictures of your wilds coming!

    Quote Originally Posted by snxtif View Post
    Yeah, with 150%+ daily WC, nitrogen cycling is way overrated lol.

    I mean, if you can keep that much WC, bottled bacteria wouldn't do much anyway
    since they would probably get drained out with the water.
    Hey Cyrus, I'm not personally changing that much water, though your point is well taken!

    I do think the issue of losing bottled bacteria to WC is an interesting one, and I've wondered about whether or not to tweak things a little to get better results. Again, it might not really matter that much in the big picture, but would people be better off trying to soak media in a concentrated solution of bottled bacteria, or pour the stuff into the HOB filter and let it sit for a while (even a couple of hours) before restarting? In the same vein, I've been wiping down the tank during some of my WCs to keep harmful bacteria from growing--standard practice in an established system--but how much am I working against the whole process of seeding the tank in the first place with nitrifiers? Given all this, maybe I shouldn't be too critical about the products I'm using... glad it doesn't really matter!

  6. #21
    Registered Member Tshethar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    One last thought here--so far what I'm doing is working just fine starting with 4" fish. No idea whether smaller juvies would respond as well. Sometimes it seems like people planning out their systems almost always think about going with 2-3" fish or 5-6" adults, but honestly something in-between feels like a nice sweet spot for me. These guys seem tough, and not a risky proposition to start with in case mistakes are made, but there's still some excitement about seeing how they change and helping them reach their potential. And of course they're cheaper than fully grown adult fish!

  7. #22
    Registered Member Tshethar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Alright, another week in and things are doing okay but I've hit my first bumps in the road. Or, more likely, bugs in the road. Or in the water, as the case may be. I started a thread asking if people used whole house filters (or HMAs) and why, and Pat linked me to her experience doing so and some helpful discussion about that. (Over here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ilters-and-Why) As mentioned there, I noticed that my discus didn't seem to enjoy their water changes that much, and I've been watching them carefully and seeing if I can tell the difference between a certain amount of shyness to be expected from fish that are new and are having their tank messed with, and fish that don't like something about their new water. Given that I have history with possibly suspicious municipal water, I was already a little paranoid. But the fish, robust as they've been, have also been starting to show me a few signs that they were dealing with something minimally irritating.

    Essentially, they were staying huddled up, definitely not playing in the fresh water or begging for food, and darkening a little, and I started to see some rubbing from a fish or two, plus some occasional fin fluttering, usually the ventral fins. Eating and feces have been totally normal for all. So, I went ahead and ordered the cheapest whole house filter I could find, with 5 micron sediment and carbon block filters, which at minimum is going to eliminate large particles, metals, and hopefully some other nasties. (Haven't really researched this much, but curious about whether this will block all protozoans or not, or flagellates... seems like some cysts and bacteria will get through, but it's the external parasites I'm imagining at the moment.) So far, happy with this purchase, which now filters the water going into my aging barrel. Water parameters are 6.4 pH (no swing), 3 degrees dH hardness, some ammonia still showing on the API kit but maybe a false positive from using Safe (still dosing for possible ammonia toxicity), and finally (today) some nitrates were showing before a water change. Been generally changing about 65% once per day in the evening, sometimes siphoning off and topping off a bit in the morning.

    By the time I got the water filter installed I was seeing clearer signs of some darkening and flashing, with the most recent top-of-the-pecking order fish showing stress bars and ceding his place to others. So yesterday I decided to try increasing the heat and adding some kosher salt. Brought it gradually up from 82-83 to 87-88, and dosed at 1 tbs/5 gal. Fish seem to have responded favorably to this. Still seeing some occasional darkening and sulking but everyone is eating and no signs of bacterial issues. Didn't see rubbing or flashing tonight, so hoping things are heading the right way. Stopped feeding my messy seafood mix the last couple days in order to keep water changes to 50%; fish have been happy with hikari pellets, some spirulina and immune boosting flakes, and FDBW.

    For experienced folks who made it this far reading, I'd welcome advice on how long you'd keep the salt and the higher temps going. And I'm also curious if you think these issues will improve with the whole house filter or not.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    IMHO, “keeping”, “raising / growing out” and “breeding” discus are literally different beasts.

    For starters those are starting to “keep” the discus,
    from my personal experience (or lack there of) rule of thumb is, the bigger the better.
    Buy the biggest 6+ fish as your budget allowed.

    2-3” inches need a lot more caring/pampering.

    I myself started my first batch of 8x3” 6 months ago, and I think I stunted most of them
    (seems like their growth has slowed down already, and most of them are 5”ish)
    And I think that’s the common newbie mistake.

    If only I could change anything in the past, with the same amount of money, I would buy 2-3x5” instead.
    That means, sure I might have to save up more in order to buy 6 of them.
    But in the end, i should have ended up with better size and shape,
    rather than 8 of mediocre batch.

    Later, I bought 4 more of 5”, put into the same tank, gave them better care,
    Now they are 6.5”+-.

    Then, I started raising a new batch from 2”, with better (hopefully at last “proper”) care,
    They are now 4”+- within few months and boy, I fed these guys 3 times more than my first batch.
    Change water every day. Siphon poops 3 times a day.
    It’s harder work, but I had more fun in a way of “watching your kids grow”.
    Totally different experience.

    TL;DR
    Buy the size according to the experience you want/skill you have.
    If you just want to keep beautiful fish, less-ish work, go biggest you can buy.
    Wanna have fun growing them out, but don’t mind harder work, buy many smaller ones.
    Water change is not just a chore, it's my life now...

  9. #24
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Hi Bill, are you aging your water? Also is your tank fully cycled? Also check your nitrite and nitrate levels before a water change. I used the salt/heat (88) when I noticed one of the wilds doing the head tilt and allowing itself to the bossed around. I only added salt once but continued the heat until the fish returned to normal. I never saw any poop issues BTW.
    Pat
    Last edited by Second Hand Pat; 09-08-2018 at 08:55 AM.
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  10. #25
    Registered Member Tshethar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Thanks, Pat! Yes on aging the water, though the pH seems stable and no microbubbles this time of year--allows me to temperature match if nothing else. I don't think the tank is fully cycled, from what i can tell. Still showing ammonia on the API kit, and nitrates seem negligible--I may have been hoping to see orange last night, or if I am, it is minimal. No nitrites.

    I added salt twice but based on your practice decided to just change with clean water over the last day or two. Since the fish look happier about the change, I did two 50% WCs over the last couple of days. (Adding Stability with each of these.) Everyone is eating, though a couple of fish have been "sulky" on and off (with some hanging out on their own and darkening or showing bars), and unfortunately I did see some rubbing earlier today, which makes me think I may not have eliminated all sources of irritation with the salt and heat.

    Decided I might let the temp slowly come back down and see how we do over the next few days before deciding if things will resolve themselves or require some other intervention. As always, thoughts are welcome.

  11. #26
    Registered Member Tshethar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Well, just under 6 weeks in and we've got problems.

    Honestly, it may be a good thing that this is a busy week for me because I just don't have time to obsess over the discus, but I'm worried this tank could end up crashing like my last attempt two years ago.

    In short, the fish are definitely "bugged," but I don't know by what or what to do about it.

    So, I brought parameters back to 83-83 degrees after about 4 days running 87-88, the first two with 1 tbs of kosher salt/5 gallons of water. Haven't medicated in any other way yet, even with Prazi or Levamisole for QT.

    Thought I'd try providing lots of clean water and pristine tank conditions for a few days, now that I have my sediment filter and carbon block between my water supply and aging barrel. So, I upped my WC to 50% 2x per day, morning and evening, and have been feeding cleaner foods, still several times a day.

    But this morning after WC I had my first splash and dash, which I heard from the next room. Caught a bit of it on video in case people haven't seen this:

    Everybody is still eating, but there are fish that hang out on their own now (one in particular, not the dasher), and I took some video tonight of a few of the other fish rubbing/scratching:

    The same fish from this morning did some more splashing this evening--though he ate some, too--and his poop is normal. Some other fish seem to be producing what looks like intestinal lining or clear (not white) feces in large quantity (took a quick pic before WC), but honestly I'm not entirely sure what it is--seen some of it all along, and hadn't thought it was an issue. (It often floats.)

    2018-09-10 21.33.38.jpg

    Anyway, I really don't know what to do at this point. I'm a little bummed out that my water seems to be a problem and I may be again stuck with something I can't get rid of or prevent from getting into my tank.

    What would you do?

  12. #27
    Registered Member DiscusBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    So sorry to hear about your problems with such a beautiful group of fish. I suggest you post all information, including the videos, in the forum's "Emergency Room":

    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumd...Emergency-Room

    Don't forget to copy and paste the Disease Questionnaire (link at the top of the page)

  13. #28
    Registered Member Tshethar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Thanks, Mauro. Good idea--will do. Love your fish, by the way; holding out hope of holding onto these guys. Will open up a thread over there and eventually link back here.

  14. #29
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Hi Bill, I hate the splash and dash. Let's try reducing your water change to one 40% per day for a couple days and see if this helps the splash and dash guy. I know this sound counter intuitive. I have had this happen with baby wild heckels and the reduced water change amount did help.
    Pat
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  15. #30
    Registered Member Tshethar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back in the Game!

    Thanks a lot, Pat.

    I actually was going to go in this direction, too, as I remember also seeing other fish happier with smaller water changes when they were stressed, so long as the tank was stable. But Al just (correctly) figured out in the ER thread that I'm dealing with a nitrite issue--didn't show up on tests until this afternoon--so I'm going to start with that.
    Greatly appreciate the insight.

    --Bill

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