New fish, maybe old problem? Don't know what's "bugging" them!

[Tshethar]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Began noticing some apparent itching or irritation with the fish over the past couple of weeks or so, along with some occasional darkening, usually after water changes. (Only had the group for just shy of 6 weeks.)


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Darkening was the first symptom, followed by some stress bars, then flashing and, most recently, hints of tailstanding and some significant darting. Body and feces look generally good, though fins and eyes are a little hazy.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

No meds yet. Tried kosher salt at 1 tbs/5 gal about 4 days ago and redosed to compensate for WC, so that they were in the salt for a good 24 hours. Also elevated heat at that time from 82-83 to 87-88. Replaced water with fresh water after day one and after 4 days of elevated heat, gradually brought back down to 82-83.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

40 breeder QT/growout tank, 7 fish acquired together about 6 weeks ago from single source, bought at 4" and now a bit larger.


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

At least 50% daily. Often 65% at once, some days 50% twice.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Tanks has only been running a few days before fish were added--not fully cycled--using Safe to detox ammonia. BB.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

Yes, aging and aerating, temp matching. Aging either 8-12 hours or longer, depending on whether WCing 2x or 1x per day. no ph swing.


8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp __82-83___

- ph __6.4-6.6___

- ammonia reading _between .5-2.0 ppm, using Safe at detoxing dose, possibly interfering with API reading___

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading _0-5___ hard to read, though I saw traces of orange on API kit but may not be showing.

Dosed with FritzZyme 7 and now using Stability with each WC to ensure cycle ASAP.

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __100%__

- RO water ____

Suspicious of my water supply so running it through a 5 micron sediment filter and 5 micron carbon block between tap and aging barrel.

9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

no.

10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Hikari pellets in morning, some Angelsplus prevent and recover flakes, some Kens flakes (veg or immune boosting), some frozen brine shrimp, occasionally frozen bloodworms, daily FDBWs, and had been feeding homemade seafood mix before WCs but have held that to reduce water fouling given uncertainty about large volume water changes.

11. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

Timeline of events and more background can be seen in tank journal (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ck-in-the-Game!), but here's what's been going on today:

This morning after WC:



This evening after WC:



Really wondering how to handle this. Was hoping lots of clean water would solve this--or salt--but afraid things might go downhill.

What say you, discus people?

Thanks in advance for whatever you can suggest.

[brewmaster15]

Hey Bill,
I know the Nitrites level you posted was 0 but that makes little sense if the tanks still cycling. I have a feeling you have or are having nitrite spikes. Salt may help with blocking further Nitrite uptake during cycle, but Methylene Blue should take care of any nitrites absorbed already. (kordon brand is at many petshops ..if not Jehmco.com should have the pure powder) I believe the fish will naturally work those out of their system in 2-4 days.

I would suggest bumping up the water to 80-90 % per day until symptoms resolve and check your nitrites kit for expiration. I'd also switch to Prime for now unless safe says it detoxes nitrites.

hth,
al

[Tshethar]

Hey Al,

Thanks a lot for checking in and trying to help me figure this out. Finally home and getting a look at the fish, as well as my test kits and such. Honestly, I'm not sure about the possible nitrite issue. My nitrite kit is about two years old but doesn't expire till 6/2020, and I've been checking them on and off over the past few weeks and never saw anything other than zero. So, I think it is more likely that my tank isn't cycled at all and I may be having ammonia problems. The most I've seen as far as that goes is 2.0 ppm on the API test, and I've been adding Safe with every water change. (Also, I just looked at the bottle and, while the language is a little convoluted, it says near the end that in an emergency you can dose at 4x the normal concentration to detoxify nitrites, which is the same amount it recommends elsewhere for ammonia. I didn't do a WC or siphoning this morning (no time), and everything seems relatively stable at the moment, though I wouldn't say totally normal. (Still, the most irritated fish yesterday are not dark at the moment, and everyone has just eaten some flakes.)

I'm kind of inclined to do minimal water changes instead of the higher volume ones to be honest, but if its ammonia that's the problem I realize I should watch this. (Let me pause now and check it...) ....

"*&^$ Al, you're right!" he thinks to himself....

So, I just picked up the nitrite test tube I ran a few minutes ago in the midst of testing for ammonia, and sure enough, I'm picking up a nitrite spike right now. Didn't realize that test took time to develop, but there it is. Okay, well, I can add some more Safe until I've got water ready to go, and I have some kosher salt on hand as well. I'll try to look it up but if someone can give me a salt dosage for easing nitrite poisoning, let me know.

Meanwhile, I'll try to get out to the store for some methyl blue if I can manage it, though I actually have work I need to get done between now and tomorrow morning....

Thanks again and that will teach me to doubt you, Al! (Honestly, more than thrilled at seeing a clear reason for my issues.)

[brewmaster15]

Glad to help Bill.. salt at 1 Tablespoon per 1 gal water should be more than enough..its what I use here.

Given the nitrite spikes Id bump up the water Changes..it will slow your cycle but is best for the fish.

Al

[Tshethar]

Right on, Al. Will do.

Want to double check with you on salt--1 tablespoon/gallon, is that right? I added a minuscule amount earlier and with tonight's WC based on what I could find here: http://www.fishtanksandponds.co.uk/c...t-nitrite.html

Anyway, I need to get more salt anyway but might supply myself differently if I'm dosing at a higher rate.

Also, if I pick up some liquid methylene blue tomorrow how would you dose it in this situation?

Thanks again! You rock.

[Megalodon]

It's interesting that this is happening after water changes. When do you add the Safe and do you add it the tank or the barrel?

[brewmaster15]

It's interesting that this is happening after water changes. When do you add the Safe and do you add it the tank or the barrel?

I have a possible idea as to why this happens after water changes. The effect of the nitrite poisoning is to block oxygen binding to hemoglobin. This means the fish have less available oxygen. When fish are scared or stressed they use more oxygen just like they do when feeding. Factor in Gases in the water from water changes and the fussing we do in the tank and its a lot on the fish.So these things combined can really negatively impact fish. I read in a review on nitrite poisoning that stress while a fish is experiencing nitrite poisoning can be fatal as a result.This wasfin fish hatchery data I believe but it makes sense when you think about it.

hth,
Al

[Tshethar]

That's really interesting--glad to learn about it, though of course not at the expense of the fish. (Glad to report that they are stable and seem to be doing pretty well given that this is exactly what they're dealing with.)

I read some of the same stuff about hemoglobin and inability to carry oxygen, but hadn't tried to imagine why water changes would seemingly make things worse. I have someone close to me who has had pretty severe anemia which does the same thing in people, and it's true that sometimes this causes symptoms that seem pretty peripheral to the main problem, in addition to the fatigue or dizziness that one might expect. That said, I was surprised to see the fish doing the rubbing and apparent scratching they were doing in response; I was sure they had some kind of external issue.

Now I find myself thinking that maybe the fish doing these things is basically their way of showing stress or symptoms of ill-health, or maybe even an allergic-type immune response.

Anyway, I tried and failed to get methylene blue at the local big box pet place, but should have it in the mail on Saturday and will add that to the regimen then. Meanwhile I'm dosing Safe in quantity (directly into the tank) and some salt, and adding Stability to the HOB filter daily, and I've been so busy that I'm just barely keeping up with what they've been used to, which is about a 75% WC once a day in the evening. Feedings have been a little lighter in quantity and/or frequency. They're definitely doing better.

Meanwhile, after 24 hours and before the WC I showed about .25 ammonia, relatively high nitrites, and 20 ppm nitrates, so at last the cycling process is well underway and if all goes well I won't stall out here.