Willie's Grow Out Challenge

[Pices]

I noticed the color too. They are going to be beauties!
Patty

[Willie]

Another week has passed and it's time to take pictures! I haven't had to travel this week so they got their daily water changes. They also went into a 30 gal cube.

Saturday was the deep clean day. The sponge gets squeezed out (in your face, John) and every surface gets wiped down. And Sunday morning...

thumbnail3.jpg

thumbnail1.jpg

thumbnail.jpg

Willie

[LizStreithorst]

You write an excellent story, Willie. It's a good read from start to finish. From what I can see, you have a few fish with potential in the batch.

[Willie]

Everyone seems happy after their daily water change - everyone except for one little guy.

thumbnail1.jpg

Not sure what I can do about this.

thumbnail.jpg

Drat! Willie

[LizStreithorst]

Willie, you have to keep in mind that in addition to having a crazy schedule for raising babies you got your fish much later than the others. All things considered I think you are doing well. So you've got one unhappy little one. Big deal....

[Willie]

Thanks, Liz. Looks like this little guy is just less happy in general.

thumbnail4.jpg

He looks much better a few hours after the water change, just not as happy as the others.

thumbnail2.jpg

Willie

[Willie]

Six weeks into it and this has been quite a learning process. Kudos to Al for a brilliant idea. I've raised many batches of fry over the years, but frankly never paid that much attention to individual fish. Raising ten meant that you looked at each fish. Al had made an effort to ensure we all received a representative sampling of his spawn so it was reasonable to assume that we started off with the same genetics. Differences can be mainly ascribed to environmental effects, e.g. raising fry.

When I started this contest, my assumption was I know how to do this and I'll just do it that way. My presumption was that it's hard to improve on daily 100% water changes. But the contest allowed me to compare my results with others and assess which approaches were better, which were not. Looking at pictures of Bryan's fish was also a humbling experience. So here's what I've learned, mostly from his results.

There were two major differences in Bryan's approach: he made 2 water changes daily and he fed flakes. So why would 2 water changes on such small fish make such a big difference vs one daily? My guess is that discus fry are very, very sensitive to nitrate levels. I don't do any measurements, but I suspect that 10 - 20 ppm of nitrate is growth limiting. Fry breath very rapidly, so these are ammonia factories. With the kind of overfiltration I do, I know that there was no ammonia or nitrite in my water. I also wiped down the tank bottom daily so bacterial buildup was minimal. So the frequency of water changes at the very beginning is as important as the volume. In this way, those who moved their fry into larger tanks earlier achieved similar results - lower nitrate levels.

Moreover, Bryan's male and female discus (I'm assuming he has both) did not differ in size. Everyone else's spawn had markedly different sized fry. My guess is the female fry are much more sensitive to nitrate than male fry. Keeping the nitrate down meant both sexes could grow closer to their genetic potential. I've seen this before with a good friend raising my fry. He made 40% water changes three times a day and produced spawns with no size differences.

Finally, the most startling conclusion was that Bryan's large, frequent water changes affected the height and roundness of his fry. Most other people, including me, had fry with bumps on the forehead, beaky fronts, football shapes, etc. In my experience, some such fry will grow up into round and tall discus. But Bryan's pictures showed that large, frequent water changes can get you there directly. I had also seen this before with my friend, but had assumed it was superior genetics. Bryan's results showed that environment was as important as genetics.

Lastly, Bryan fed flakes while everyone tried wet and dry foods to power feed their fry. Obviously flakes are just fine for raising very nice discus. I've seen adult discus that were raised on flakes for their entire life. They don't have the "side of beef" look to them, but they grow up to be beautiful fish.

So far, a great experience for me. I will raise my spawns very different going forward. I only hope that these contest threads get read by others not in the competition.

Willie

[fljones3]

Excellent observations. Very helpful.

[danotaylor]

Excellent observations. Very helpful.

+1 Thanks Willie!!

[brewmaster15]

Six weeks into it and this has been quite a learning process. Kudos to Al for a brilliant idea. I've raised many batches of fry over the years, but frankly never paid that much attention to individual fish. Raising ten meant that you looked at each fish. Al had made an effort to ensure we all received a representative sampling of his spawn so it was reasonable to assume that we started off with the same genetics. Differences can be mainly ascribed to environmental effects, e.g. raising fry.

When I started this contest, my assumption was I know how to do this and I'll just do it that way. My presumption was that it's hard to improve on daily 100% water changes. But the contest allowed me to compare my results with others and assess which approaches were better, which were not. Looking at pictures of Bryan's fish was also a humbling experience. So here's what I've learned, mostly from his results.

There were two major differences in Bryan's approach: he made 2 water changes daily and he fed flakes. So why would 2 water changes on such small fish make such a big difference vs one daily? My guess is that discus fry are very, very sensitive to nitrate levels. I don't do any measurements, but I suspect that 10 - 20 ppm of nitrate is growth limiting. Fry breath very rapidly, so these are ammonia factories. With the kind of overfiltration I do, I know that there was no ammonia or nitrite in my water. I also wiped down the tank bottom daily so bacterial buildup was minimal. So the frequency of water changes at the very beginning is as important as the volume. In this way, those who moved their fry into larger tanks earlier achieved similar results - lower nitrate levels.

Moreover, Bryan's male and female discus (I'm assuming he has both) did not differ in size. Everyone else's spawn had markedly different sized fry. My guess is the female fry are much more sensitive to nitrate than male fry. Keeping the nitrate down meant both sexes could grow closer to their genetic potential. I've seen this before with a good friend raising my fry. He made 40% water changes three times a day and produced spawns with no size differences.

Finally, the most startling conclusion was that Bryan's large, frequent water changes affected the height and roundness of his fry. Most other people, including me, had fry with bumps on the forehead, beaky fronts, football shapes, etc. In my experience, some such fry will grow up into round and tall discus. But Bryan's pictures showed that large, frequent water changes can get you there directly. I had also seen this before with my friend, but had assumed it was superior genetics. Bryan's results showed that environment was as important as genetics.

Lastly, Bryan fed flakes while everyone tried wet and dry foods to power feed their fry. Obviously flakes are just fine for raising very nice discus. I've seen adult discus that were raised on flakes for their entire life. They don't have the "side of beef" look to them, but they grow up to be beautiful fish.

So far, a great experience for me. I will raise my spawns very different going forward. I only hope that these contest threads get read by others not in the competition.

Willie

Willie, These are some very insightful thoughts and observations. I had hoped that different techniques would be employed and we could learn from them as a whole. Which is what is happening. Thanks for taking the time to share your observations.

I think theres definitely a link between what is fed, how much, how often and water changes and the not just the growth of the fry but the shape. I don't have any concrete observations here yet to share but this year I have been working with several pairs and many fry.I have tried different things with the various batches food wise. And I think its possible to royally screw up your frys shape by feeding the wrong kinds of food at a particular age. I wish I had more to share on that but right now lets just say I am really re-evaluating my own methods right now because of observations here and in this contest.


So keep it up everyone!
al

[Adam S]

Great post, Willie. Very insightful approach to the contest so far.

Something else that merits attention is the use of bbs or tiny foods in general. Greg Sage made an interesting observation with a male-heavy wild-type swordtail population whose sex ratio improved after feeding green water. He theorized that female swords were born smaller than males and got out competed early on when he was feeding mostly small pellets.

Even foods like flake can be difficult for very small fish to eat, and what doesn't get eaten usually gets ignored after a while. Bryan mentioned that he fed bbs almost exclusively until 1.5", which along with the other details, may have resulted in a better start for his females than the rest of us. The broad feeding pattern of bbs makes it difficult for dominant fish to monopolize the food, and it lets the fish feed for hours.

[brewmaster15]

Adam,
Length of Feeding BBS is something I have noticed as having an effect on shape and growth here. I had attributed it to the BBS being balanced nutritionally with things like the right fats and acids.. But you may right also on the availability factor. In any case, Its something we should all play around with more I think,

al

[Willie]

..Bryan mentioned that he fed bbs almost exclusively until 1.5", which along with the other details, may have resulted in a better start for his females than the rest of us. The broad feeding pattern of bbs makes it difficult for dominant fish to monopolize the food, and it lets the fish feed for hours.

Great observation. I weaned mine onto beefheart as soon as possible, but didn't really take the time to watch if every fish ate the new food.

Willie

[Second Hand Pat]

I wonder if the early and continuous feeding of BBS contributes to the uniformity in size?? or is there more to it?
Pat

[Tshethar]

I also think that keeping the light on 24/7 and the temp warm (around 86, iirc) contributed to their impressive growth, as it seems they were grazing almost constantly in between water changes. Great to see some of this discussion at this stage!