Bill's Grow Out Challenge Thread 2018

[eugenefish]

So, I may not be the best discus-keeper in this competition, but I might turn out to be the most prolific reporter... We'll see if that keeps up when the novelty wears off and the rest of life catches up, and not sure if it will count for much in the end, but I'm going to try to keep documenting stuff as best I can.

For now I've noticed that at least a couple of times it has taken my fish a while to recover from big water changes. For whatever reason they seem fine sometimes, but today there was some heavy breathing and most of them heading for the corners. Water was aged overnight with Safe and 2 tbs of salt, and temp matched. It was about a 90% change, using the technique above. I think tonight I'll try a smaller volume and see if there's a difference. Haven't tested ammonia to know to what degree bioload is an issue, but will do so if I back off on the percent changed.

I've also got one fish--the smallest I received--who has generally been showing some stress bars and darkening and who hasn't been showing much interest in food. Still picks a little, but not like the others. I'm wondering if this is the kind of fish that is destined to lag behind the curve, but I don't want to jump to any conclusions. He's still active, swimming around and showing curiosity, just not for food. I put a light on the tank today and focused on him here:



Can't think of too much to do to encourage him. Decided to ease the temp up a little, from 83-84 to 85-86, to see if that would stimulate his appetite. Will keep trying some different foods. Ideas welcome.

I am a big fan of big WC for growing baby discus. My WC schedules are 2 x 90% each day and these change always bring me happy and healthy discus.

Something you have to watch out for is the PH of the water in the tank and the PH of the aging water you are about to do the WC. If there are a big different in PH values, you can stress out the fish too.

[Tshethar]

Are you feeding the Repashy as a 'in between meals' type feeding or are you feeding that as one of the multiple daily feedings?

I'd say I'm still in an experimental phase with my feedings. Right now I've used it as one of my main feedings over 2 days. One positive is that I have felt as though I could leave some quantity of it in the tank without fear of it clouding the water or quickly creating an ammonia spike.

I'm a little ambivalent about it right now though, and I'm not sure if I'll keep it as one of my staple foods. I can definitely see using it occasionally when I can't be present for a regular feeding. (Right now my work allows me to be at home a lot, and to have some flexibility with my schedule. It's also a really short drive to my office.) I have Eheim feeders, but those can be difficult to dial in and I've found it's easy to pollute the tank with them. So I might go with Repashy for the occasional long day away.

The discus accept it, but yesterday they kept picking at tiny crumbs from the flake food I fed before they went after it, and they left some uneaten a while later that I siphoned off. On the plus side, they will eat it and the ingredients list includes what look like a lot of food-based vitamins and minerals. On the minus side it may be lower in protein than some might recommend for discus growth. Seems like it has a place as a supplement, which is nice to have.

For between-meal snacks I'm going to go with BBS for the time being, especially since my smallest one isn't really eating, and my lazy-man's hatchery produces small quantities over a couple of days.

[Tshethar]

I am a big fan of big WC for growing baby discus. My WC schedules are 2 x 90% each day and these change always bring me happy and healthy discus.

Something you have to watch out for is the PH of the water in the tank and the PH of the aging water you are about to do the WC. If there are a big different in PH values, you can stress out the fish too.

Still planning to perform 2x/day, but since I saw some funky behavior yesterday morning I went with 75-80% last night and again this morning, and didn't see the stress reaction I did that one time. Not sure if that will be my regular practice or if I'll try upping it again.

Typically I haven't picked up any pH swings when I've checked, and I am aging my water at least 8-12 hours, so I was a little mystified. Everybody looked fine this morning, though the one fish above is still darker than the others and not too keen on the foods I've offered today. I'll have a new batch of BBS later this afternoon and I'm hoping maybe he'll get going on some of that.

[Tshethar]

Bill, when you raise the temp it makes the fish breath harder and use more energy so this is what I meant by stress. Higher heat can also increase the pecking order if that has started. Pat

Thanks, Pat. That helps clarify.

Hope it look better this morning. Pat

I wish I could say that it did, but it's pretty touch and go today with this fish.... may have a "crowdsourcing" opportunity here as I may be facing a tough decision soon and I can't think of too many options...

[Tshethar]

So, here's the situation: smallest fish seemed to make it through shipping okay but has always been quick to darken and show stress bars more or less from the beginning, as far as I remember, and has seemed awkward about or not very interested in food. This has become more pronounced in the last couple of days. Will also occasionally scratch a little. He's thin.

Didn't have BBS for a day or so and was feeding other foods: Al's pellets, the garlic flake from Brine Shrimp Direct, Repashy Community Plus, and some FDBW roughed up a bit (but probably not small enough). 2x/day water changes, between 75-95%, depending. Once or twice the WCs seemed stressful, but generally they don't. Did 75% for two in a row, and a bigger one tonight (95%) as water looked a bit cloudy and fish seemed fine, with this one exception.

This afternoon I took a look at him and I thought, "oh, he's really bad," I honestly thought he was trying to stick close and follow other fish around and he related to them as if they were one of his parents, as if he was interested in their slime coats. I actually think he was, and I felt bad for him, and thought "he's so weak he's delirious, and maybe I'm going to have to cull him tonight or he's just going to die." But I had a new batch of BBS so I put them in the tank. At first he didn't seem to really wake up to this, but then he showed some interest. Not like everyone else, but enough to get start getting some nutrition. Here it is:



Tonight he had more energy, no problem with water change, though still no interest in pellets afterwards.

I can think of a few options at this point, but I wonder it there are readers out there with other ideas. Here's what I got:

1) he's too far gone and a risk to the others--better to cull/euthanize him than prolong things

2) well, he might not make it back but keep mixing in some BBS, keep the tank the same otherwise and see if he comes around. (status quo)

3) mess with a variable like temperature (so far small changes haven't shown much effect either way)--it's at 82-83 now, or maybe salt quantity (1-2 tbs/10 gal now.)

4) try keeping him in a breeder net or similar and give him BBS in a confined space multiple times a day and see if that turns him around.

Your turn, people. I'm asking the audience. Would you do one of these four, or does anyone have some other suggestions? The stakes are high!

Thanks!

[fljones3]

I am no expert on this but it seems a cull is in order. I am concerned about the other fish.
Sounder responses will follow though.

[Second Hand Pat]

Bill, I would give it a day or two with BBS and see if it improves. I think removing it from the other fish may be too stressful. Be mentally prepared to cull it however. A sick fish is a risk to the group.
Pat

[JamesW]

Apart from dying and upsetting the water parameters what is the risk of this fish to the group? I'd guess that whatever he has the other fish have already been exposed to and fought off.

I vote option 2.

[Tshethar]

Thanks, everyone--great stuff! More thoughts? Experts and casual observers welcome to weigh in. Holding steady this morning....

[rickztahone]

Hello there Bill . I've been meaning to reply to your thread for a few days now. Your style of writing and updating reminds me of me. I am an update friend and you can check out a thread of mine from a while back where I raised 25 1" discus in a 75g tank. It was my first time raising from that small a size. Check out the thread in my sig.
One of the best advice I can give you is the age old saying in all aquarium hobbies, and that is the KISS rule. Just keep it simple. Ask any breeder, discus arent difficult to raise. They need clean water, good food and did I mention clean water? You can literally raise discus from fry to full grown in a tank with only a sponge filter and a heater and nothing else. The best way to avoid diseases and sick discus is preventative work. There is obviously no getting around the shipping stress and if you have to cull now, it's better to do it now than later. Keep some clove oil on hand.
To continue with the KISS principal, you have to make sure of a few things that will make your discus keeping easier:
-make sure to age your water.
-treat the aged water right before using the water
-if you have bubbles after a WC, add a pre filter to your hose to help with the bubbles.
-dont worry too much about the pressure coming out of the hose during WC's. Dont point right at them but they can certainly take some high current for a small amount of time.
-make your WC process easier. This helps in the long run of discus keeping. It doesn't become a chore to keep doing daily WC's which can easily start getting annoying.
-when siphoning water, use a bulkhead strainer at the end of your hose. No more discus down the drain lol.
-when doing a WC, dont disconnect the heater. Keep horizontal at the bottom of the tank or you WILL forget to connect it at some point.
-make your own BH mix. This was my best investment in the hobby. You make food that you know is quality and it will make your discus nice and big.

I'm sure I can think of a million more things but I'll let you absorb those for now. If ever you have a question, shoot me a PM and I'd be more than happy to help out. When it comes to illnesses though, Al is the man as well as Rick but not sure if Rick is still hanging around.

[Pices]

I have no opinion to offer here, except I always heed Pat’s advice and James makes a good point too.
I am finally catching up on these threads and can’t believe you found (and saved) that fish! I couldn’t pick it out in that pic. Good job! Great thread! Good luck with your baby.
Patty

[Tshethar]

Hello there Bill . I've been meaning to reply to your thread for a few days now. Your style of writing and updating reminds me of me. I am an update friend and you can check out a thread of mine from a while back where I raised 25 1" discus in a 75g tank. It was my first time raising from that small a size. Check out the thread in my sig.
One of the best advice I can give you is the age old saying in all aquarium hobbies, and that is the KISS rule. Just keep it simple. Ask any breeder, discus arent difficult to raise. They need clean water, good food and did I mention clean water? You can literally raise discus from fry to full grown in a tank with only a sponge filter and a heater and nothing else. The best way to avoid diseases and sick discus is preventative work. There is obviously no getting around the shipping stress and if you have to cull now, it's better to do it now than later. Keep some clove oil on hand.
To continue with the KISS principal, you have to make sure of a few things that will make your discus keeping easier:
-make sure to age your water.
-treat the aged water right before using the water
-if you have bubbles after a WC, add a pre filter to your hose to help with the bubbles.
-dont worry too much about the pressure coming out of the hose during WC's. Dont point right at them but they can certainly take some high current for a small amount of time.
-make your WC process easier. This helps in the long run of discus keeping. It doesn't become a chore to keep doing daily WC's which can easily start getting annoying.
-when siphoning water, use a bulkhead strainer at the end of your hose. No more discus down the drain lol.
-when doing a WC, dont disconnect the heater. Keep horizontal at the bottom of the tank or you WILL forget to connect it at some point.
-make your own BH mix. This was my best investment in the hobby. You make food that you know is quality and it will make your discus nice and big.

I'm sure I can think of a million more things but I'll let you absorb those for now. If ever you have a question, shoot me a PM and I'd be more than happy to help out. When it comes to illnesses though, Al is the man as well as Rick but not sure if Rick is still hanging around.

Thanks, Ricardo, and great to hear from you! I remember all your help as a Mod back in 2016 as well as your grow out thread. I remember in particular some really good systems for discus (like the bulkhead halfway up with the strainer you could attach siphon hose to), and lots of attention to your overall designs, both aesthetically (nice background!) and functionally (silent drain, nice overflow, etc.). I remember seeing nice fish from Al Castro and you were trucking along... then I took a break from discus and this site when my group went down and next thing I knew it seems like you've turned reefer! What the hell? Just kidding. I haven't done saltwater since 2003 but there's lots to enjoy there. Anyway, don't be surprised if I take you up on your PM offer and feel free to keep chiming in as we go.

I'd say the only thing I am either not already doing, planning to do, or can easily do as needed right now is the beefheart mix. That's a maybe. I have seafood mix in the freezer that I made as a first foray into homemade mixes, and the big fish like it but it includes some pieces that are too large and on the whole it pollutes the tank quite a bit. I was feeding it sometimes before WCs, but with the tank still cycling it seemed like a bad idea. So, we'll see. If my fish are getting outpaced by the frontrunners I may change my tune...

[Tshethar]

I have no opinion to offer here, except I always heed Pat’s advice and James makes a good point too.
I am finally catching up on these threads and can’t believe you found (and saved) that fish! I couldn’t pick it out in that pic. Good job! Great thread! Good luck with your baby.
Patty

Thanks, Patty! I know, right? (I can't believe I found him either, and he's fine.) Oh, and he's not in that pic. I was not going for the camera when I laid eyes on him, a good 2 minutes or so after he went out the window, to capture the scene for posterity! I was running with him, and my only quandry was whether to stop off at the sink to try to wash the mud off of him or whether to just go right for the tank. (I picked the latter.) Afterwards I decided the whole thing deserved some visuals.

Since then I've been using the bucket at least part of the time for WCs... e.g., at night when seeing outside would be a problem. I may also stick a small piece of sponge in the end of my hose as a mini-strainer. And my eyes are glued to what I'm doing the whole time now. Pretty soon the fish will also have their part down...

Fed a lot of BBS after this morning's WC. Saw the dark one eating some before I left. Been gone all day but will be curious to see how things are when I get home...

[Tuterosso]

only microscope say what hapend

[Tshethar]

only microscope say what hapend

I'm afraid you're right. I've been watching the various threads that come up in which people like yourself, who either practice veterinary medicine or otherwise have background in identifying microscopic pathogens, weigh in on what might be appearing in feces, on gills, on the bottom of the tank, etc.

Honestly, I never thought my interest in the aquarium hobby would lead me to consider buying a microscope! But having been here for a while, I can understand why someone invested in their fish would do so. And with the community that browses the forum, it seems someone who wouldn't know what they are looking at might get enough help to apply proper treatments when necessary or possible, and avoid unnecessary and potentially harmful ones.

I can't say the prospect of learning about discus disease pathology attracts me to the hobby ()--and I'd prefer to skate along with no need to cultivate deep knowledge, especially at the moment--but it almost seems like an inevitable part of it for those who stay in the game.

I suppose if I end up with a microscope in the next few years I can justify it as a learning tool for my young son, who may yet have a certain (albeit limited) appreciation for all the fish stuff his dad is up to these days. (Otherwise, I'm afraid my wife will see it as yet one more illustration of my utter lack of sanity and healthy boundaries when it comes to my obsession, I mean, "hobby.")