How to deal with aggression?

[danotaylor]

I recently acquired 8 x 4.5-5.5" discus. They're alone in a 125gal 6" long tank. The tank is BB and has some river stone and 2 pieces of wood. There are now 2 pairs that regularly spawn and another 2 singles that someow escape the attention of the rest. However there are 2 red pandas that seem to attract the attention of the other 6 fish anytime they move from near the surface of the tank. I am a little concerned because they don't get much food, and it's no life hovering near the surface all the time.
I am planning to attach some java fern to some rocks and wood to break up the lines of sight. Also thinking maybe to put a divider in for a while to let them beef up a little. I know they're cichlids, and this is typical cichlid behavior, but does anyone have other suggestions as to how to deal with this situation?
Thanks,
Danny

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Danny, try spreading the food around the tank to create some distance between the fish doing feeding time. Sometimes it is useful to simply sit and watch the fish during feeding to see who is and is not getting food.
Pat

[slicksta]

Though this fix is usually temporary... you can try moving your existing deco around as it tends to confuse them establishing a territory.
Moving different fish in or out helps too if you have that option.

[danotaylor]

Thank you for your suggestions Pat & Slicksta. I noted also from Bryan's experience a similar strategy to Pat's suggestion. He feeds enough food to keep everyone interested and busy for a couple hours. I tried that method this morning but unfortunately the 2 emasculated fish are at the short end of the tank. I tried to feed across the whole length of the tank but they stayed up near the surface and did not feed with the other 6.
I will continue with this feeding strategy and try moving the aquascape decor around. The 2 pairs currently have eggs on each end of the same piece of wood, so I will slide that from the middle of the tank to 1 end. I don't want to use a divider cause it will detract from the aesthetics of the display, but there's $150 invested in the 2 pandas so their welfare takes precedence over aesthetics.
I welcome other suggestions. More updates will come as time progresses...

[Second Hand Pat]

Danny, at this point you may need to determine if the two fish in question are even eating. That divider maybe needed a short term at this point to determine the true state of the fish!
Pat

[pastry]

Bullying will never stop. If you remove the bully then another fish will step up and take its place. If you remove the fish being bullied Then other fish will become the targets. It's just nature. That also includes us humans! I should not say bully but dominance. Right now my most dominant fish is actually pretty gentle. But in the past I have had some real Hellraisers. To include ones that used to be the lowest on the totem pole and then ended up being the worst bully eventually with the thing group of fish and was not even the biggest fish. I like your idea of putting obstacles in their. It will give them something to hide behind. Won't stop aggression but will give them refuge. They'll get food... Not as much... But they'll get enough.

[danotaylor]

Thank you once again Pat. Thanks Pastry.
As I mentioned previously, I went ahead and moved the wood the 2 pairs laid eggs on to one end of the tank, and repositioned the other piece of wood. I waited 2 hours then fed them some BH mix. 1 of the 2 emasculated fish ate and both fish have found a better place to hang out away from the surface. I will get some plants soon to break up the lines of vision, as long as there is some available at my LFS atm.
If things are still bad for the other panda at tom am's feeding I will place the divider in and try to feed up the 2 pandas some more...
More to come...

[slicksta]

Keep in mind that changing the pecking order will be the only long term solution. And in my experience that means moving fish in or out and not necessarily the alpha or the omega. Sometimes it has to do with the number of fish in the aquarium. What determines the pecking order is something the fish only know and they're not talking. It's a very dynamic situation and always present. I've seen runts have a fish twice their size cowering as you describe and unless there is some change to the order it rarely remidies itself. But once you come across the combination, you can have a situation where all can thrive.
Also keep in mind that having mating fish exaggerates the situation.

[danotaylor]

The issue I have with the pecking order is there are 6 fish that essentially pay little to no attention to each other, but all 6 boss the 2 red panda's around anytime they move an inch. I have kept and bred a wide variety of cichlids over the past 37 years, so I'm really not surprised. The main issue is the bottom 2 are my wife's fav's fish.
Moving fish in/out is not an option as I am a 1 tank bloke these days...except for 10 & 12 gal set ups my sons have...too small for 5" discus to he sure!
I will try the divider, and some plants anchored to the wood and see where that gets us. I really wasn't expecting 2 egg laying pairs so soon after putting them in my tank either TBH.

[slicksta]

Sounds like you have a handle on it then so just keep mixing it up and try the divider.
You can try adding a fish or two as larger numbers sometimes spreads the aggression but there's no guarantee that it wouldn't make things worse

[danotaylor]

Yeah I thought about that Slicksta. Adding more numbers always worked well to disperse aggression when I kept African cichlids. The trouble with 5"+ discus is it could turn out to he an expensive and futile test, lol.

[pastry]

The issue I have with the pecking order is there are 6 fish that essentially pay little to no attention to each other, but all 6 boss the 2 red panda's around anytime they move an inch. I have kept and bred a wide variety of cichlids over the past 37 years, so I'm really not surprised. The main issue is the bottom 2 are my wife's fav's fish.
Moving fish in/out is not an option as I am a 1 tank bloke these days...except for 10 & 12 gal set ups my sons have...too small for 5" discus to he sure!
I will try the divider, and some plants anchored to the wood and see where that gets us. I really wasn't expecting 2 egg laying pairs so soon after putting them in my tank either TBH.

Yeah I am only allowed one tank by my wife as well! It does make it tougher to figure out these problems. How about try a divider or two for about a month. Get them fattened up. Then when you take the dividers out rearrange everything. Even if it is something that one of your pairs is spawning on, move it. Right now I have a jerry-rigged net held to the sides by sucker cups so that one of my current pairs can get a jump start on raising a small spawn. It looks crappy since it is a show tank but it really isn't for long.

Do what you can, brother! If nothing really works then try keeping them all happy as best you can yet looking away when a few of them get their butts kicked again and again. It sucks but with two pairs in the tank right now, it'll be tough for a subordinate fish.

[danotaylor]

Thx Elliot. I keep at it, try different options, and pray it all works out!! Cheers mate

[snxtif]

My personal experience/only success of dealing with aggression:

1. Using net-like divider to separate discus into 2 groups, so that they can see, smell each other clearly
2. Divide tank's space assymetrically, one side noticeably bigger than the other (like 1:2)
3. Put the worst (bully / aggressor) in small side.
4. Observe the interactions, if the bully still occurs, move another aggressor to the smaller side
5. Rinse and repeat, until you might end up with 6:2 or even 7:1 (but if it's 7:1, might better try to figure out what's wrong with that one)
6. Separate those fish for 2 weeks, feed normally for both side.
7. Remove separator and observe. Might need to repeat again.

My situation improved dramatically with this method.
I assumed that it's about boosting self-esteem(lol) and sense of belonging / territorial instinct of the smaller / weaker ones. Of course, they also benefit from more feeding as well.

Edited:
To elaborate above opinion, my discus those got bullied and swam away unconditionally, never fought back began to stand their ground after using this method. They started to fight back. Sure they still lost the fight here and there due to size/power difference but the situation got a lot better. They started to join the feeding frenzie, kept eating even got poked by bigger ones.
(Comparing to swim away without fighting and hiding in the corner before i used this method.)

[Filip]

Daniel , are you sure the two bullied discus are not sick or weak in some way. When a fish is bullied by all the rest it may ussualy mean that they are sick or weakened .
Not saying they are , but just something to consider .