Crossing a Cross

[jimmyjoe]

I've been going thru these threads with a fine tooth comb looking for results or a percentage of what the F1's would look like. Let's say just for giggles what would the percentage's be for the parents both alenquer cross's since that's what I ordered from Kenny this shipment be. I guess what I'm asking is will there be any alenguer's in the batch of the fry Meaning just alenquer among them, or if I choose can I get back to just alenquer by breeding F1's then F2's so on and so on. Thanks Jim in Ohio

[jimmyjoe]

I've been going thru these threads with a fine tooth comb looking for results or a percentage of what the F1's would look like. Let's say just for giggles what would the percentage's be for the parents both alenquer cross's since that's what I ordered from Kenny this shipment be. I guess what I'm asking is will there be any alenguer's in the batch of the fry Meaning just alenquer among them, or if I choose can I get back to just alenquer by breeding F1's then F2's so on and so on. Thanks Jim in Ohio

What I'm trying to ask is what percentage of the offspring out of this coupling will be pure Alenquer.

[William Palumbo]

Would be hard to say. First you have to actually find out what the cross is mixed with. What makes it a cross. Alenquer x what? I have a wild Oriximina female crossed with a Cuipera cross male. Same thing. What"s he crossed with? Lots of so-called crosses out there and more expensive than the true wilds. If you want pure Alenquers, you'll have to find some, REAL ones, and breed them. Too many Alenquer and Cuipera crosses out there that just seem to be low quality turks, or B grade Rose Red types of fish...Bill

[jimmyjoe]

Would be hard to say. First you have to actually find out what the cross is mixed with. What makes it a cross. Alenquer x what? I have a wild Oriximina female crossed with a Cuipera cross male. Same thing. What"s he crossed with? Lots of so-called crosses out there and more expensive than the true wilds. If you want pure Alenquers, you'll have to find some, REAL ones, and breed them. Too many Alenquer and Cuipera crosses out there that just seem to be low quality turks, or B grade Rose Red types of fish...Bill

Thanks tons for the feedback Bill, lets just say the Alenquer was crossed with a Cuipera to make the cross or are you saying that it might be some other breed. But I mean, but if it was a Cuipera would there be just Alenquer and Cuipera in the spawn along with the cross??????????????

[brewmaster15]

but if it was a Cuipera would there be just Alenquer and Cuipera in the spawn along with the cross??????????????

If I am understanding you here, No Jim there wouldn't be... You can't cross a wild fish to a domestic and get a percentage of wilds. They may look wild but they will all be a mix of the wild and domestics genetics.

The thing is "wild" or Cuipera or Alenquer isn't a genetic trait. These fish are literally the same basic genetics as our Domestics..


Example

Cross an albino to non albino

all F1 s (fry from first cross) will look like a non albino yet all will carry the albino gene

Generation F2 (fry from F1X F1),

Take those offsprings and breed them and you get 25 % that are not albino and don't carry the albino gene, 25% that are albino and 50% that look non-albino but carry the gene for albinism (same genetics as the F1s),

This is because there is a specific gene for " albino".


There isn't one "Gene" for wilds vs Domestics. Theres just variations of the same genes. These get all mixed up when you cross them,

You can't get any percentage of genetic wilds from a cross of wild X domestic. You can get some fish that look like one though its going to be very variable.

If you cross a wild Cuipera to a wild Alenquer you would get a F1 Wild Blue Discus , some of which I am sure would be very stunning. But that cross is much the same as taking a red Turq from Breeder A and crossing it to a Red Turq from Breeder B where both stocks are not closely related... you would get , Red Turqs.


I don't know if that answer your question of not.

al

[William Palumbo]

I know what you are getting at Jimmy. I guess in "theory" you would have a % of Alenquers...a % with what they were crossed with, and a % of combined characteristics of each fish. You always have to know what you are working with to get desired results. One reason why I try and breed true strains together, especially with wilds. The domestics, and all these crosses are just too inbred to know exact lineage. No one says what these crosses are crossed with,....except it's a cross, one reason I'll be staying away from them...Bill

[Mando]

What I'm trying to ask is what percentage of the offspring out of this coupling will be pure Alenquer.

If you ordered crosses from Kenny already, their off springs wouldn't be F1's. For the sake of the question, and correct me if I'm wrong, lets say both your alanquers are crossbred with an SS, then your next batch of offspring have a potential to have a new dominant gene since the parents more than likely share the same recessive genes from the ss. This is considering they didn't already get a dominant gene from the SS. And, it gets more complicated if those SS's were also crossed.

You would need a detailed history of the crosses to know exactly what are the chances of what genes you'll end up with. You can get back to just alanquer, but it requires intensive study, and a long time to get rid of the gene that was not there to begin with. This is years of work.

Also, I believe the Alanquer isn't a pure breed either, is it?

[brewmaster15]

You can get back to just alanquer, but it requires intensive study, and a long time to get rid of the gene that was not there to begin with. This is years of work.

HI Mando, I don't think this is possible, It would be great if it was but you can't take a wild and cross it to a domestic and get offsprings you further breed to remove the Domestic... Once you cross a wild to a domestic you have mixed those genes as if you put them in blender. We often look at wilds like they are different from domestics,but they really are not much different. You can take those F1s and selectively breed for a fish that looks similar to it wild ancester in trait like "red" or "halo" but thats just its phenotype you are seeing .Genetically that fish isn't going to have the same genetic makeup as a wild.

The reason why you can't get back to wilds from offspring of a wild Discus x Domestic is because its not one gene thats involved its all the genes... I tried to show that here...

Example

Cross an albino to non albino

all F1 s (fry from first cross) will look like a non albino yet all will carry the albino gene

Generation F2 (fry from F1X F1),

Take those offsprings and breed them and you get 25 % that are not albino and don't carry the albino gene, 25% that are albino and 50% that look non-albino but carry the gene for albinism (same genetics as the F1s),

This is because there is a specific gene for " albino".


There isn't one "Gene" for wilds vs Domestics. Theres just variations of the same genes. These get all mixed up when you cross them,

You can't get any percentage of genetic wilds from a cross of wild X domestic. You can get some fish that look like one though its going to be very variable.

If you cross a wild Cuipera to a wild Alenquer you would get a F1 Wild Blue Discus , some of which I am sure would be very stunning. But that cross is much the same as taking a red Turq from Breeder A and crossing it to a Red Turq from Breeder B where both stocks are not closely related... you would get , Red Turqs.

You can easily remove albinism because its a single trait..the more traits involved the harder it gets to remove them..


This is at least my understanding.

al

[Mando]

HI Mando, I don't think this is possible, It would be great if it was but you can't take a wild and cross it to a domestic and get offsprings you further breed to remove the Domestic... Once you cross a wild to a domestic you have mixed those genes as if you put them in blender. We often look at wilds like they are different from domestics,but they really are not much different. You can take those F1s and selectively breed for a fish that looks similar to it wild ancester in trait like "red" or "halo" but thats just its phenotype you are seeing .Genetically that fish isn't going to have the same genetic makeup as a wild.

The reason why you can't get back to wilds from offspring of a wild Discus x Domestic is because its not one gene thats involved its all the genes... I tried to show that here...




You can easily remove albinism because its a single trait..the more traits involved the harder it gets to remove them..


This is at least my understanding.

al

Makes sense. Getting close to what resembles an Alanquer is not impossible, it's just years of work. it will never be pure. I didn't mean to portray that in my message.

[jimmyjoe]

Thanks everyone who really explained what I thought was possible to be impossible. Everything that was said makes perfect sense, so much for thinking outside the box. I'll just make due with what I'm hoping to be a fun adventure into breeding something almost wild. I'll also begin looking for wilds to breed as that is my hope to achieve someday. Thanks all for bringing this to light Jim in Ohio