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Thread: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

  1. #1
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    Default Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    Problem

    1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

    I purchased some discus recently from a new supplier. This is a different source to where most of my previous discus have come from. When I got these fish home, the discus went in my small bare bottom QT tank (75 litres - 18ish gal.) They remained here for one week. These fish were a bit shy but seemed to eat ok in QT. I put this down to a change in environment and didnt think much of it.

    After one week I moved them to my display tank. Around 36 hours later one of the new discus was dead on the bottom of the tank when I woke up. The following morning (60 hours later) a second discus (of the new batch) was also dead on the bottom of my display tank.

    Following on from this around 48 hours later, the big bully (old stock) in my display tank started to look ill. He was hiding up the back of the tank with one of his fins clamped and top and bottom fin down. I suspect this was due to him bullying the new stock and coming into contact with them (since 2 of 3 died.) Fast forward to now, around 24 hours later... all 8 of my old stock discus in the display tank have started to show similar effects. I have not previously had any health issues with these fish.

    Currently the only fish that looks "normal" is the sole survivor from the new batch.

    2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

    Fish that are exhibiting effects of illness share the following common symptoms.
    • clamped side fin (usually one fin clamped and one waving at random)
    • Top and bottom fin flat and tucked in
    • Some of the worse symptom fish have been sort of laying on their side. Not completely flat but kind of tilted over
    • Colour loss, kind of darker (but not significantly)
    • loss of appetite. Still eating, but no where near as much as normal.
    • loss of activity in the tank. Most fish are dorment
    • big red discus has a red sort of rash around mouth and lips.


    3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

    • 80% water changes daily.
    • I salt dipped (Iodized sea salt) the worst fish and moved him to my QT tank around 10 hours ago. Big yellow/white discus in pics.


    Tank/Water

    4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.


    • 4ft - 300L.
    • Usually sits at 30 deg C (86 deg F.)
    • Has been up and running for around 8 months.
    • No previous health issues.
    • 8 discus which are old stock
    • 1x new stock discus left (2 others dead)
    • 2x clown loach, 15 harlequins. 3x Corys and 3x peppermint bristlenose


    5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

    Display tank - I change 50-60% of the water 3x times per week. Usually Sunday/Wednesday and Friday. Since the illness I have been doing around 80% daily (last 3 days)

    QT Tank - 50% daily.

    6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

    • Display tank running for last 8 months - Pool filter sand substrate (1 inch depth)
    • QT tank is barebottom and runs only when I need it. If the QT tank is off, I run the filter in the display tank to keep the bacteria colonies alive so I can "instant cycle" the QT tank.


    7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

    I age my water for 24 hours in a food safe drum. While filling the drum from local tap water I add Seachem prime. The water then sits and is heated to tank temperature for 24 hours prior to doing a water change.

    8. Parameters and water source;

    Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.



    - temp 30/86

    - ph - 7.4

    - ammonia reading 0

    - nitrite reading 0

    - nitrate reading 5 ppm

    What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

    100% municipal water

    9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

    See #1.


    10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

    Morning - I add flakes for community fish and pellets for discus
    Night - Freeze dried blackworms for discus

    Occasionally (2-3) feeds per week they get frozen beef heart cubes which are thawed for around 5 mins before adding to the tank.

    11. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

    Please see the images - here

    Other info

  2. #2
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    Hello Yoshi!

    It seems that the new discus are carriers. For future reference, QT should last for 6 weeks... During this time, anything your new fish have will probably become apparent as they adjust to your new water.

    Do you have access to Furan 2? If so, I'm thinking Furan 2 and 1 Tbs non-iodized pure salt per gallon in a bare bottom tank with massive water changes - 80% daily - replacing the Furan 2 (not the salt) with each water change. Salt is salt, so don't spend a fortune on aquarium salt. I use solar salt for water softeners and it's less than $5 for 40lbs.

    Maybe Al can help further when he see's this post... There are other Aussie's here as well. Maybe they can help point out available meds in your area...

    Brian
    Last edited by jeep; 12-21-2018 at 11:19 AM.

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    Registered Member RickMay1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    Hi Yoshi,

    A few questions:

    Q: Were the water parameters you gave before or after you increased the water changes?

    Q: When you added the new fish, did you do a big cleaning of the tank? Could it be that you disturbed an area of the sand that normally didn't get vacuumed like under the potted plants or the driftwood?

    Q: Other than the sponge filter in the picture, what other kinds of filtering are you using. How often do you clean your filters?

    Q: are you seeing any issues with the other fish?

    Q: Do you have any reason to think it might be a water quality issue in the tank? Other than adding three more fish, any other changes that could have caused the water to go bad? Like you found a huge chunk of rotting beef heart? Have you noticed any foul smells (fishy or rotten eggs) in your tank?

    I would start with adding 1-2 TBS Salt to 10 gallons and the more water you change, the better.

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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jeep View Post
    Hello Yoshi!

    It seems that the new discus are carriers. For future reference, QT should last for 6 weeks... During this time, anything your new fish have will probably become apparent as they adjust to your new water.
    Hi Jeep, thanks for taking the time to reply.

    I agree. I realise I was a bit impatient on this. I guess I have been "lucky" introducing new fish to date and didnt think much of it. However, I have definitely learned my lesson here and will be more diligent in future.

    Do you have access to Furan 2? If so, I'm thinking Furan 2 and 1 Tbs non-iodized pure salt per gallon in a bare bottom tank with massive water changes - 80% daily - replacing the Furan 2 (not the salt) with each water change. Salt is salt, so don't spend a fortune on aquarium salt. I use solar salt for water softeners and it's less than $5 for 40lbs.

    Maybe Al can help further when he see's this post... There are other Aussie's here as well. Maybe they can help point out available meds in your area...

    Brian
    I have access to a very reputable aquarium/LFS which opens in an hour and a half (Its 8AM here.) Dont know if they stick Furan 2, but I can definitely try. I spoke to them last night on FB chat, directing them to this thread for info and they suspected "Discus Disease" to be treated with Tetracycline antibiotics.

    Appreciate your suggestion re Furan 2 and salt though. My mum has another large tank which I may be able to borrow to carry out the treatment. I could move my sponge filter over to that tank and an immersion heater to run a bare bottom setup as you have suggested. How long do you usually carry out a treatment of Furan 2? is it a week long cycle?

    At the moment, all I have done is cranked the heat up to 90 deg F after reading a few other posts around the internet as it was quite late last night and I didn't have access to any open stores or salt.
    Last edited by YoshiR6; 12-21-2018 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Reply to Rick

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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RickMay1 View Post
    Hi Yoshi,

    A few questions:

    Q: Were the water parameters you gave before or after you increased the water changes?
    Hi Rick, thanks for replying. These are fairly normal water parameters with my usual 3x a week 50% changes. I find it pretty much impossible to get below 5 ppm Nitrate which is why I ended up striking a balance of 3x a week during normal healthy operation.

    Q: When you added the new fish, did you do a big cleaning of the tank? Could it be that you disturbed an area of the sand that normally didn't get vacuumed like under the potted plants or the driftwood?
    No, not that I recall. As part of my normal routine I disturb the sand weekly to avoid things like this. Normally sunday is my big cleaning day where I wipe down the glass, clean my amazon sword plant of any algae. Finally I would vac the sand, turn it over to disturb it and then vac again when anything settles.

    This were introduced after a midweek WC which normally involves vac of surface debris and then 50-60% WC.

    Q: Other than the sponge filter in the picture, what other kinds of filtering are you using. How often do you clean your filters?
    My primary filtration is a Fluval 406 canister filter which I clean every 2 months when change over the activated carbon (fluval zeo carb) sachets.

    I then have the XY-280 sponge filter, I use this for extra filtration and the effect of an airstone to agitate the surface. I squeeze this out probably monthly in a bucket of aquarium water.

    I then also have an Eheim Pickup 60 internal filter. This is the designated QT filter that house in my display tank when the QT tank is out of action to keep the good bacteria alive. This gets squeezed out monthly with the sponge filter. Currently this filter is off servicing my 70ish litre QT tank

    Q: are you seeing any issues with the other fish?
    All other fish are fine, not one fatality. This is only affecting my old stock of discus.

    Q: Do you have any reason to think it might be a water quality issue in the tank? Other than adding three more fish, any other changes that could have caused the water to go bad? Like you found a huge chunk of rotting beef heart? Have you noticed any foul smells (fishy or rotten eggs) in your tank?
    I dont believe so. I check my water params a couple of times a week and consider myself to be pretty thorough with my weekly maintenance over the 3x scheduled WC sessions described above. I am a long time reader of SD and first time poster (unfortunately.) So I recognise and respect the effort these guys need to maintain a healthy environment.

    With the beef heart, I usually cut it up into quite small bite size pieces so that all of the fish can get an opportunity to have a feed. I dont generally just throw a cube in. So it would be quite obvious if there was old food lingering in the tank. Its not uncommon for 1x 1cm2 cube to be divided up into 8x smaller bits. My amazon sword also lives in a small pot plant so I can easily move it around when I vacuum to make sure I get all old junk out of the tank and things dont get left behind hiding in little tucked away spots.

    The tank doesn't smell at all. It all appears to be normal (inc water params.) However the discus are clearly telling me something is not right.

    I would start with adding 1-2 TBS Salt to 10 gallons and the more water you change, the better.
    Will make this happen this morning as it aligns with the suggestions above. Just so I understand correctly, are you suggesting that I add 10 Gallons of new water with 1-2 TBS of salt? or 7-15 TBS of salt to suit my (nearly) 75 GAL tank?

    I did lose one of my smallest old stock discus last night. However all my bigger (around 5") discus seem to be out and active this morning after turning the heat up last night (90 deg F.) They definitely need treatment as they dont look "normal." But... I was expecting to find something alot worse when I woke up this morning.

    Will get down to the LFS and report back.
    Last edited by YoshiR6; 12-21-2018 at 05:36 PM.

  6. #6
    Registered Member RickMay1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    Quote Originally Posted by YoshiR6 View Post
    Will make this happen this morning as it aligns with the suggestions above. Just so I understand correctly, are you suggesting that I add 10 Gallons of new water with 1-2 TBS of salt? or 7-15 TBS of salt to suit my (nearly) 75 GAL tank?

    7-15 TBS of salt to suit my (nearly) 75 GAL tank.

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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    Thanks Rick

    I've managed to borrow a 4ft Aquarium from my mum and set that up as barebottom to treat my discus. I've moved across 2x filters, a heater and airstone. After that i've moved all of my discuss across and added 5 TBS of salt disolved in water. Temp is set at 32/90F

    I'm now off to the LFS to find out about FURAN 2

    Updated pics of hospital tank setup are in the original image library here - https://1drv.ms/f/s!AjvPgFAk02cwgct-x6JR9dofXzHfmA

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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    I’ve spoken to a few people over the past day including my reputable LFS and a breeder I often buy from. After reviewing this thread they both independently assessed my issues as “discus disease” which sounds similar/the same as discus plague.

    Furan2 apparently isn’t available in Aus anymore. However I was advised to use “Blue planet - Aquari-cycline” where the key component of this is the antibiotic tetracycline hydrochloride.

    https://www.thetechden.com.au/Blue_Planet_Aquari_Cycline_100_Tablets_p/el081.htm

    This will apparently wipe out all good and bad bacteria, so I now need to balance daily dosing with ammonia/nitrite checks and water changes to keep the fish at sage levels. I will also use salt daily to assist the healing process.

    I understand that in a perfect world ammonia and nitrite should be zero. However, given that I am dosing with this sort of treatment... assuming that ammonia becomes significantly present, what is an acceptable level? I will definitely aim to keep it below 1ppm and conduct > 50% water changes if we get close to this. Last night when I went to bed ammonia was already on the rise at .5 ppm so I changed 25% water so I could sleep.

    I know that I’m not safe just yet. But my fish did look noticeably better following this advice. There was a bit more activity in the tank and they were starting to use both side fins again and not clamping.

    Fingers crossed. It’s been a stressful 48 hours
    Last edited by YoshiR6; 12-22-2018 at 04:07 PM.

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    Platinum Member fljones3's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    I have not had to do this before but I would think that 80-90% daily WC would keep things moderated. You might go twice for safety.
    Others will comment I am sure with more experience.

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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    Lost 3 so far today. Down to 7 out of 13

  11. #11
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    Hi YoshiR6, since the med you are using wipes out your beneficial bacteria do as large as possible daily water changes prior to added the med. Use prime (or similar dechlorinator) to help neutralize the ammonia and salt (2 tablespoons per 10 gallons) to help the fish deal with nitrites.

    You will need to maintain this after treatment until the beneficial bacteria repopulates your filter. Sorry about the losses but hopefully the fish continue to improve.

    On a side note you might want to research Al's QT process. This thread is a good read http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ine-*questions.
    Pat
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    Good chance its bacterial, so it would be better to let the temperature gradually down to 82F. Bacteria are usually given an advantage at higher temps.

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    Default Re: Sick discus after adding new fish - please help!!

    After five days of treating my tank, I think I am finally starting to see some success.

    The bad news is that I’ve lost 10 of 13 discus. I probably caught it a little late. The only two originals to survive were my two largest fish, the other I believe was the new carrier/host who has never looked sick at all.

    Today they have all their fins up and their bottom two fins are sticking out again. They are still shy and not too interested in food, but it’s progress.

    Still running my water temp at 82 and dosing with tetracycline. I do an 80% water change every morning, then attempt a feed before re-dosing. I have stopped using salt after day 4.

    I am now weighing up my options with what to do with my display tank. I've read things around the forum about this discus disease returning when introducing new QT'd fish up to 6-12 months later. So I may consider bleaching my display tank to essentially nuke everything (inc filter) and start fresh. I really dont want to go through all this pain again, as it has essentially wiped out my whole tank that I have been building over the last 18 months. I've learnt alot throughout this process, however... its still a lesson I wish I didnt have to learn.

    Interested in any advice from those who have had similar experiences.

    UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_1aa.jpg
    Last edited by YoshiR6; 12-25-2018 at 07:02 PM.

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