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Thread: growth rate related to tds

  1. #16
    Registered Member warblad79's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    Same thing happened to this guy from FB group using RO water then remineralize it with Ken RO right but still not enough. If you notice the gill plate are shorter and fins are under develop. You may get decent grow rate using RO water but if the gill plate and fins are short. What good is that? To me that's still a cull.


    20190213_170235.jpg

  2. #17
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    I wonder what else he was doing wrong?

    I remember the thread that Al alluded to. I was was watching it. He was doing more wrong than raising fry in soft water. He was overcrowding them. He had too many fish and not enough time to care for them nor sufficient tank space to raise them. He got in over his head. I do not blame his problems on his water.

    Al's thread was a blast from the past. I miss that time. The forum had a different feel to it back then because there were people here with very strong opinions. This is one of the times that Al had to put out the fire.
    Mama Bear

  3. #18
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    Liz thats true. I did have a major fire to put out lol.. As to what went wrong with those fish.... I spent alot of time with that breeder on the phone going through what he was seeing in the fry and how his system was set up. In my mind his soft water and over crowding were issues that led to the defects....


    Btw..We still have head strong opinionated people here.lol.. Im one.I know a few more here as well.

    Im going to stay with my belief that fish do take up minerals and traces and do growing better in water that has these over straight R/O water. It may be a throw back from earlier years in the hobby but its what most hobbyists intuitively knew or learned .Its also why most add back tap water to their RO water and used mixes like 80 % R/O to 20 % tap water . Why else bother doing that I wonder?


    Lets ask this question... Exactly how many of our members are using pure R/O to breed in or raise their fry and how many add back tap water or use other additives?Most I know add back tap and transition to tap as soon as they can.

    Id also like to know more about these fry that people raised in pure R/O... How long are we talking about ? A few weeks? months? etc.Sometimes the devil is in fact in the details.Im wondering what other parameters were in play and also the parameters.of your R/O. Not all R/O water is the same.Some is more pure than others.Being on well water here and not having great water pressure...my R/O when I used to use it was not all that efficient compared to others I knew.

    al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 02-15-2019 at 09:40 AM.
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  4. #19
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    Just to clarify things here so they arent misconstrued. I am not saying that Willie'sand Liz's experiences here with RO water and fry are not true. I know them both well enough to know that if they say they did this..they did.However I also know from my own experiences and many others that doing as they did leads to skeletal and growth deformities at least under various conditions.My experiences do not agree with theirs.

    That happens all the time in the hobby and real world.. the question is why? The answer is buried in the details.... hence the discussion.
    al
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    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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  5. #20
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    100% agree with Al. Kathy and I used to allow the fry to feed off the sides of the parents in very soft water, appx 30 TDS and we had tons of deformities. Once we switched to raising artificially in much higher TDS, we have had minimal deformities.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    Just as a hypothetical, suppose fry need a small amount of calcium in the water for healthy growth, and that amount is small enough that some RO water is barely sufficient, and some isn't.

    RO membranes take out a percentage of the minerals in the water you start with, they don't remove all minerals unless there is a DI stage. Most of us have RO water with a TDS of 5 to 20 ppm. My RO water has a TDS of 15 ppm but it could be anywhere from 5 ppm to 25 ppm depending on the state of the membrane, or whether the booster pump is running. And the dissolved minerals are mostly salts of calcium. So, one person can see fry with short gill plates in RO, and another person might see a different result because it aint the same water. RO water in Portland, Oregon is not the same thing as RO water from a well in Texas.

    The water in the Amazon and its tributaries is not devoid of minerals. These links show that the TDS varies a great deal but can be anywhere from 3 ppm in blackwater to 80 ppm or more in some whitewater. The main stem of the Amazon has a TDS of 24 ppm +/- 18 ppm. There is some calcium and magnesium present... the question should be, 'How much is needed in the water for good health and growth'?

    http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...52008000400008

    http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...32009000600018

    https://www.witpress.com/Secure/elib...WS13002FU1.pdf

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/fbf...eb9444526e.pdf

    ------------

    btw, its true that RO Right contains mostly sodium and potassium salts, not the Ca and Mg we assume are important. You can tell this because RO Right increases TDS without having much of an impact on general hardness (GH). I keep containers of calcium chloride and epsom salt (for magnesium) next to the water barrels and throw a pinch of one and a smaller pinch of the other into the water. Adult rams get TDS 30, fry get more like 90 ppm.

  7. #22
    Registered Member Carolina discus's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    Hi All....
    Al asked me to comment as we have had numerous discussions over the years about this same subject. First this is our first hand experience in growing out thousands and thousands of fry, others experiences should be listened to as there is not "1 way to keep healthy discus"!. We have extremely soft water that most would kill for to breed in...while that seems like a gift it is actually a royal PIA as it creates a whole host of issues when it raising the fry...there are always a new set of issues when trying to progress to the ultimate goal of being able to develop consistent quality.
    I cannot speak 100% on how/if TDS effects the total grow out size as we never had any issues with the size of the fish. The issues we had are like others mentioned...short gill plates and deformities like underdeveloped rays of the dorsal/anal fins were the main issues. We tried numerous ways to increments our hardness and mineral content and we found what works best for us it a 2 prong approach:
    1. adding crushed coral to the sumps. We found the substrate from John at Jehmco worked best for us. We used the fry development as the gauge of how much we used...please keep in mind the main growout station/rack is 2200 Gal with a 250 g sump so I cannot be exact on the ratio....we also have used a corner box filter full of the media in individual tanks with good results. We just started to experiment with a new substrate we are adding to another system that showed some excellent results...the problem is we dont have any batches of fry at the moment to grow out to feel confident of the results....we can let you know one that happens.

    2. we also looked at increasing the fishes ability to absorb more minerals through their food. We again tried numerous items and found that adding powered spinach to be one of the best methods that showed results. You can mix into your beefheart mixes easily:
    https://www.gnc.com/superfood-green-...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

    we also used powered oyster shell with good results:
    https://nhs-hydroponics.com/pacific-...iABEgI2nvD_BwE

    last is powered kelp meal...again with very good results:
    https://www.amazon.com/Maxicrop-5000...39441441&psc=1


    We ran side by side comparisons with grow out tanks to document what worked for us and what didn't...our goal was to get consistent results regarding body shape, gill plate and fin development.
    If we can answer any questions regarding any of this please don't hesitate to ask...again, this is based on our experiences and does not discredit others input...get as much information and figure out what works best for you. We have had 800TDS reading and the fish were gorgeous... we have had 60 TDS and the fish that were fed the special mix didn't have any issues so the point is there are no "experts" on discus so gather as much information as you can and see what works for you!
    I attached a few older pics of some of the tests we ran....

    Hope it helps!
    Eric
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    Eric
    Carolina Discus
    www.carolinadiscus.com

  8. #23
    Registered Member AquaWoman's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    This thread is amazing. Carry on.

  9. #24
    Registered Member AquaWoman's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    I meant to add in my last post that I grew out mine using tap and well water (my town switches it seasonally) I added sea shells which dissolved over time. Not sure if that helped any.

    Lots of good info on this thread. So many variables in this hobby it’s hard to pin down a standard.

  10. #25
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    Quote Originally Posted by AquaWoman View Post
    I So many variables in this hobby it’s hard to pin down a standard.
    That's what Al said but you just said it in fewer words. I did it and had no problems with my fry. The only time I had a problem was when I had a too high kH. I got flat top dorsals.

    I've seen the eveidence in pictures that are contrary to my experience, but something was different. I had a TDS meter and used it often. There was only a very small reading on the meter. May be it was enough.
    Last edited by LizStreithorst; 02-16-2019 at 12:40 AM.
    Mama Bear

  11. #26
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    Quote Originally Posted by LizStreithorst View Post
    That's what Al said but you just said it in fewer words. I did it and had no problems with my fry. The only time I had a problem was when I had a too high kH. I got flat top dorsals.

    I've seen the eveidence in pictures that are contrary to my experience, but something was different. I had a TDS meter and used it often. There was only a very small reading on the meter. May be it was enough.
    Lol.. My apologies! Words are free so I use them as much as I can to try and make my points understood to hobbyists of vastly different backgrounds and experiences.. I rather people have to weed through all of what I think and say rather than assume I meant something. If I take the time to write out something in detail its because I am trying to either teach or generate dialogue and discussion. I think its better than "like" "agree" "what he said" or "tweets" etc so common on the net.

    So yes.. I am not concise as I could be .lol by design.

    al
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    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  12. #27
    Registered Member AquaWoman's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Lol.. My apologies! Words are free so I use them as much as I can to try and make my points understood to hobbyists of vastly different backgrounds and experiences.. I rather people have to weed through all of what I think and say rather than assume I meant something. If I take the time to write out something in detail its because I am trying to either teach or generate dialogue and discussion. I think its better than "like" "agree" "what he said" or "tweets" etc so common on the net.

    So yes.. I am not concise as I could be .lol by design.

    al
    What he said^ lol

  13. #28
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    Now I feel bad, I never intended to criticize. It just popped into my mind when I read Amy's post. Al, your detailed explanation was excellent. It was an informative read.
    Mama Bear

  14. #29
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    lol.. Its ok Liz. No hurt feelings here. Its a given I go over the time limit on any discus talk I give or gave!
    al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  15. #30
    Registered Member Pices's Avatar
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    Default Re: growth rate related to tds

    What an interesting read. I’m not a breeder, but the detailed rationale expressed here is an exceptional resource if I ever give it a go. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Great thread.
    Patty
    If the discus are happy, I’m happy

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