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Thread: Frankenfish or not?

  1. #16
    Silver Member Willie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frankenfish or not?

    So actually the definition of speciation is that they cannot interbreed with each other and produce fertile progeny. So Roundup Ready corn cannot interbreed with wheat, rice, soybeans, etc. Frankenfood is science fiction. Yet the imagery is sufficient to stir up the mob.

    Similarly, the characterization of Frankenfish is equally irresponsible. The company in question will raise these salmon in large tanks away from the ocean. The only difference in the salmon is that it grows faster. Yet, lots of people are ready to pick up the pitchforks and torches and accuse them of destroying native salmon. The US government has taken 20 years to review their data and couldn't find anything unsafe about it. Talk about excessive regulations...

    You know what destroys native salmon? People over fishing and eating them. Want to save the environment? Eat farmed animals - including fish. It's the ultimate irony that GM salmon may actually preserve salmon as a wild species in the ocean.

    Willie
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  2. #17
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frankenfish or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post
    So actually the definition of speciation is that they cannot interbreed with each other and produce fertile progeny. So Roundup Ready corn cannot interbreed with wheat, rice, soybeans, etc. Frankenfood is science fiction. Yet the imagery is sufficient to stir up the mob.

    Similarly, the characterization of Frankenfish is equally irresponsible. The company in question will raise these salmon in large tanks away from the ocean. The only difference in the salmon is that it grows faster. Yet, lots of people are ready to pick up the pitchforks and torches and accuse them of destroying native salmon. The US government has taken 20 years to review their data and couldn't find anything unsafe about it. Talk about excessive regulations...

    You know what destroys native salmon? People over fishing and eating them. Want to save the environment? Eat farmed animals - including fish. It's the ultimate irony that GM salmon may actually preserve salmon as a wild species in the ocean.

    Willie
    Wille,
    Im sorry but this...

    o actually the definition of speciation is that they cannot interbreed with each other and produce fertile progeny
    Is not entirely true. Closely related yet separate species do in fact often interbred where their range over laps. Maybe a geographic barrier was removed or populations that had shrunk. and speciated then expanded and over lapped again.

    It happens all the time and the offspring are fertile and may play a crucial role in evolution.

    Heck , we have 3 species of Discus that do as well as many other species of fish when they are brought together.

    Al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 03-13-2019 at 07:43 PM.
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  3. #18
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frankenfish or not?

    species interbreeding..

    https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...etween-species

    https://www.quantamagazine.org/inter...tion-20170824/

    https://www.nature.com/news/evidence...pecies-1.19394

    http://revistapesquisa.fapesp.br/en/...are-fertile-3/

    http://lifeofplant.blogspot.com/2011...ation.html?m=1.

    Coffee we drink...

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32736366

    https://worldcoffeeresearch.org/work...on-f1-hybrids/

    Where I live we have coyotes that cross with dogs... a making Coy dogs. 2 distinct species and they interbreed and are becoming very common as the coyotes range increases... in other areas there are documented coy wolves.


    Pizzly anyone..
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...r-species.html

    Plenty of examples of species interbreeding and sharing genes and being fertile. By far its most common with plants which is why gm plants are potentially a very bad thing if we are not careful.
    Al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 03-13-2019 at 09:23 PM.
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  4. #19
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frankenfish or not?

    I think that Gene editting vs GMO will gain traction and support. It basically gives you the same results as generations of traditional breeding without inserting DNA from foreign species. It does this quickly by editting the organisms native DNA.

    In the USA its fast tracked but in the EU they treat it as GMO.

    Still If I had a choice, Id prefer it over GMO. Its something to watch as I am sure the tech there will grow.
    al

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/e...-gene-editing/
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    Silver Member Willie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frankenfish or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Wille,
    Im sorry but this...

    Is not entirely true. Closely related yet separate species do in fact often interbred where their range over laps. Maybe a geographic barrier was removed or populations that had shrunk. and speciated then expanded and over lapped again.

    It happens all the time and the offspring are fertile and may play a crucial role in evolution.

    Heck , we have 3 species of Discus that do as well as many other species of fish when they are brought together.

    Al
    I agree with your point, but speciation has not always accurately defined. Much of what are defined as species were based on outward appearance - a vestige of 19th century descriptive biology. Over time, modern science corrects them. But I think you'll agree that a GM discus will not transfer its genes into a GM angelfish, etc. There has never been an instance of a Frankenfood in the marketplace. Not now, not ever.

    It's always possible to create doomsday scenarios and deny reality. Despite the National Academy of Sciences report that GM foods have never produced a single instance of harm in 40 years, popular media continues to demonize science. Because only 0.5% of Americans are responsible for food production, the public has no idea how GM produces a safe and sustainable environment by reducing chemical usage, water pollution, soil erosion, etc. I've worked in this business for 30 years now and the amount of chemicals we had to use to produce one acre of crop when I started versus today is startling. We can produce crops with no plowing, with one versus 8 - 10 chemicals, using less energy, dramatically lowering our carbon foot print. People have no idea that organic crops have much higher carbon footprint than conventionally produced crops, which is why they're so expensive. Oh well, I'm just tilting against windmills...

    Willie
    Whenever you feel stupid, remember that there are people out there looking for Pokemon.

  6. #21
    Registered Member bluelagoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frankenfish or not?

    Farmed not 100% sterile salmon(they have never been 100% sterile) do indeed escape and interbreed with wild salmon.The GM salmon are making the wild population weaker.It has been proven.If they were raised on shore in cages away from the ocean,I would not see much of an issue with the way they are fattened up for food.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Frankenfish or not?

    Willie, I never said that the genes would pass from something like a Gmo Discus to a Non Gmo Angelfish. They are too far apart on the relationship.

    But it has been documented that gmo sunflowers passed their BT pesticide genes onto wild sunflowers imparting pest resistance.That example is actually from the Academy of Science report you referenced. pg152

    The 2002
    In one research study, transfer
    of the Bt trait from GE sunflowers to wild sunflowers reduced insect feed-
    ing injury on the wild sunflowers and increased their fecundity (Snow et
    al., 2003). In another research study, a Bt transgene was transferred from
    * Brassica napus to wild B. juncea, and the progeny were backcrossed to
    produce a second generation of backcross offspring (Liu et al., 2015).
    In research plots, the Bt plants produced more biomass in pure stands
    with or without insect pressure than did the susceptible plants. In mixed
    stands, however, the susceptible plants produced more seeds when insects
    were not present than when insects were present. As the proportion of Bt
    plants increased with insect feeding pressure, biomass and seed production
    increased, indicating that the presence of the Bt plants may have provided
    a level of protection for the susceptible plants. In both cases, it is possible
    that gene flow would provide an advantage to wild populations over time.
    However, it should be noted that these are research studies with plants that
    have not been in commercial use.
    FINDING: Although gene flow has occurred, no examples have dem-
    onstrated an adverse environmental effect of gene flow from a GE crop
    to a wild, related plant species
    .

    I have to admit I had not read the report until now but given the debate here and your citing it...I spent last night and this morning reading it in its entirety. 605 pages including citations.Talk about a head ache. I DO thank you though as I would not have read it with out the discussion here..
    Anyone interested an download a free copy...

    http://www.nap.edu/download.php?record_id=23395

    I found it interesting, but It also strengthened my view that more research is needed..That was something it called for especially going forward.
    pg35
    Report concluded that all available evidence indicated that unexpected or unintended
    changes may occur with all forms of genetic modification—including genetic engineering—
    and that compositional changes from any kind of genetic change, whether through genetic
    engineering or by other means, did not automatically lead to unintended adverse health
    effects. Report noted that no adverse health effects attributed to genetic engineering had
    been documented in the human population.

    Report found insufficient data or inadequate scientific techniques to assess effective
    biological confinement methods. When biological confinement was needed, it would require
    safe practices by designers and developers of GE organisms, effective regulatory oversight,
    and transparency and public participation when appropriate techniques and approaches
    were being developed and implemented.



    I also found it interesting that BT plants and herbicide resistent.plants generally did not increase yields pg 102

    FINDING: The nation-wide data on maize, cotton, or soybean in the
    United States do not show a significant signature of genetic-engineering
    technology on the rate of yield increase. This does not mean that such
    increases will not be realized in the future or that current GE traits are
    not beneficial to farmers.

    RECOMMENDATION: To assess whether and how much current and
    future GE traits themselves contribute to overall farm yield changes,
    research should be conducted that isolates effects of the diverse envi-
    ronmental and genetic factors that contribute to yield.


    nor did herbicide resistent plants decrease herbicidee use. The report even went as far as recommending researchers not mention that(pg 135) . The results do seem to undermine the marketing.

    FINDING: The use of HR crops sometimes initially correlated with
    decreases in total amount of herbicide applied per hectare of crop per
    year, but the decreases have not generally been sustained. However,
    such simple determination of whether total kilograms of herbicide used
    per hectare per year has gone up or down is not useful for assessing
    changes in human or environmental risks.
    RECOMMENDATION: Researchers should be discouraged from pub-
    lishing data that simply compares total kilograms of herbicide used per
    hectare per year because such data can mislead readers
    .


    I did appreciate the honesty in the BT assessment that the jury is out still on Bt plants affecting Butterflies like monarchs and needing more research, as well them listing a particular case where A Bt plant variety was shown to be making too much BT and killings Monarch butterflies. The concerns of the environmental groups were vindicated there and that particular BT crop was removed from market. The NAS review could have done a better job on covering this but skimmed over. Its cases like these though that demonstrate why we need to be cautious. Unintended things do happen...not just can happen.
    The 2002
    National Research Council report Environmental Effects of Transgenic
    Plants provided a detailed discussion of these studies (NRC, 2002:71–75)
    and concluded that one transgenic event in maize, Bt176, posed a risk to
    monarchs because of high levels of Bt toxin in the pollen, but that the vast
    majority of the Bt maize that was being grown in the United States did
    not pose such a risk. Bt176 was later removed from the market, thereby
    eliminating risk posed by that variety to monarch butterflies or other pol-
    linators.
    pg 148




    Something I think thats relative to this discussion is the Academy of Science report and literally most science reports on Gmo safety are based on plant crops and in those crops almost all are Gmos that express a pesticide like BT or infer herbicide resistence to.the plant. Thats it. I think its a leap to say GMOs are safe based on volumes of largely redundant data on something of such narrow scope as BT expression and herbicide resistance. I'mnot saying theres data that shows these are bad gmo organisms ..Just that we should not drop our guard as we head down the path of GMO fish and animals.

    The committee avoided sweeping, generalized statements about the
    benefits or adverse effects of GE crops, concluding that, for a number
    of reasons, such statements are not helpful to the policy conversation
    about GE crops. First, genetic engineering has had and continues to have
    the *potential to introduce many traits into agricultural crops; however,
    only two traits—insect resistance and herbicide resistance—have been used
    widely. Claims about the effects of existing GE crops frequently assume
    that the effects of those two traits apply to potential effects of the genetic-
    engineering process generally; however, different traits probably have dif-
    ferent effects
    .
    pg9
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 03-14-2019 at 11:14 AM. Reason: added quotes
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  8. #23
    Registered Member bluelagoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frankenfish or not?

    How can the experts say that this will not harm the wild stocks?GMO salmon eggs coming soon to the USA.https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ar/3134439002/

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