Newbie to Discus

[NP57]

Greetings,
I just recently retired and got the itch to get back into the aquarium hobby. I used to keep and breed African cichlids many years ago. I was planning to start a large reef aquarium when I came across a planted discus tank. The discus tank was so captivating that I returned my skimmer and started reading about discus.
My project involves a fish room with a 450 gal display tank c/w 125 gal sump and 2-20 gal spare tanks. I’m in the process of building the fish room now. It’s still in the early stages ie. Electrical plumbing and ventilation going in next month.
I’m new to discus and would appreciate some guidance on which thread to join for the size tank I’m planning. The ultimate goal is to have 15-20 discus with hundreds of tetras and plants.
Questions I have are as follows:
How to develop the tank ie, fish first, plants first or combo of both?
Clean up crew and other fish compatible with discus?
Substrate type, thickness required for planted tank
Should I go rooted plants or simply tied to rocks and wood ?
Real driftwood or fake?
Sump components and type of filter merdia?
Looking forward to learning about this wonderful fish .
Norb

[jeep]

Welcome to Simply Discus!! You do have quite a project ahead of you!

When you have a moment, I suggest you take a look at this video http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...TCH-THIS-VIDEO!

Also, take a look at the planted tank section. There's lots of info there... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumd...s-and-Biotopes

Brian

[discuspaul]

To be completely candid, your plan to begin with a 450 gallon tank is an aggressive approach for a novice to discus-keeping, and could readily prove to be significantly problematic and discouraging to say the least.

One of the key elements in succeeding at keeping discus healthy and thriving is to consistently provide them with plenty of fresh water changes in order to ensure they have the benefit of high water quality and conditions. Therefore it's important for you to research and determine a suitable program to achieve doing that in such a large tank, particularly if you plan to aqua-scape it and add numerous tank-mates.

This type of a plan even poses a challenge for experienced discus-keepers who would likely opt for starting off slow & easy, with nothing less than mature adult discus to lessen the risks of being incapable of maintaining ideal conditions for the fish to do well.

Not meaning to discourage you, but I would strongly suggest you spend some tome researching discus traits & behaviors by going through the stickies in the Discus Basics for Beginners section, as well as spending several weeks following the threads & posts on this forum to give yourself a good understanding of what it takes to succeed well at discus-keeping.

Once you've done that, I believe you will want to adopt a safe learning approach by starting out with a much smaller set-up, stocked with good quality discus, preferably in a bare-bottom environment, in order to gain some experience in suitably keeping these beautiful fish healthy.

Enough said, I'd expect others would plan to step in with some other thoughts to help you move into discus with a good approach for your start-up.

All the best to you.

[NP57]

Thank you Brian for pointing me to additional info. The fish room won't be ready until this winter so I have plenty of time to research and ask questions.

[NP57]

I fully appreciate your cautious approach and I may start off with my 125 sump as my initiation tank to discus while I build out my dream tank and fish room. In the interim I would appreciate all the advice this forum can provide. I'm an Engineer by trade and like all Eng I will research the topic thoroughly before investing time and $ into this hobby.
I come from the old school of fish keeping which preached the more water volume the better more stable the parameters. Other than water changes can you please elaborate on what issues you anticipate I would encounter with the 450gal vs 100 gal? Better yet can you point me to other threads that discuss the issue of going too big too soon.
Thank you very much for your advice.
Cheers

[discuspaul]

Generally speaking, you're correct in that the more water volume, the more stable the parameters. On the other side of the coin however, larger volumes can deliver a number of negative factors when it comes to the more sensitive and intolerant discus are than almost all other types of tropical freshwater fish, in terms of dealing with poorer water quality.

Discus do best in pristine, squeaky clean tank conditions, and the larger the tank, the more difficult it becomes to consistently maintain the high level of tank cleanliness needed by discus.

Given the very large expanse of substrate associated with even a moderately planted tank of 450 gallons, the more opportunity there is for the development of harmful if not toxic patches of undesirable bacteria and debris within that substrate.

And feeding a group of even 20 mature discus in such a large tank would likely result in greater amounts of uneaten food dispersal throughout the tank, thereby exacerbating the difficulty of doing a proper clean-up following daily feedings.

The time and effort needed to properly remove uneaten food in a 450 gallon tank after each feeding would be very high.

The moderate to heavy plantings in such a tank would further complicate the clean-up issues, and perhaps even cause the hobbyist's efforts to be much more focused on the aqua-scaping rather than on the well-being of the discus - a no-no with discus-keepers.

And having a large number of other fish types as tank-mates simply and significantly increases the odds of cross-contamination more readily taking place at one time or another.

When one or more discus get overstressed, ill-health often sets in, and if medication is needed, that can also become difficult and ineffective in such large volumes without being fatal to many tank-mates in the process.

Discus are also very social fish and tend to be comfortable within close-knit larger groups kept within a suitably-sized tank environment, and a 450 gallon tank may not lend itself well to a group of 20 fish in that regard.


I'm not personally aware of any specific thread in the forum that is dedicated to the issue of going too big too soon. Your ongoing homework may reveal something in that regard, or one of the moderators may be able to point something out to you as time goes on.

[eugenefish]

To be completely candid, your plan to begin with a 450 gallon tank is an aggressive approach for a novice to discus-keeping, and could readily prove to be significantly problematic and discouraging to say the least.

One of the key elements in succeeding at keeping discus healthy and thriving is to consistently provide them with plenty of fresh water changes in order to ensure they have the benefit of high water quality and conditions. Therefore it's important for you to research and determine a suitable program to achieve doing that in such a large tank, particularly if you plan to aqua-scape it and add numerous tank-mates.

This type of a plan even poses a challenge for experienced discus-keepers who would likely opt for starting off slow & easy, with nothing less than mature adult discus to lessen the risks of being incapable of maintaining ideal conditions for the fish to do well.

Not meaning to discourage you, but I would strongly suggest you spend some tome researching discus traits & behaviors by going through the stickies in the Discus Basics for Beginners section, as well as spending several weeks following the threads & posts on this forum to give yourself a good understanding of what it takes to succeed well at discus-keeping.

Once you've done that, I believe you will want to adopt a safe learning approach by starting out with a much smaller set-up, stocked with good quality discus, preferably in a bare-bottom environment, in order to gain some experience in suitably keeping these beautiful fish healthy.

Enough said, I'd expect others would plan to step in with some other thoughts to help you move into discus with a good approach for your start-up.

All the best to you.

Excellent advice. Plan for some kinds of automatic water changes that can move large amount of water in and out of tank quickly will make life so much easy and enjoyable when it come down to keep discus health

[NP57]

Paul your words ooze with wisdom. Thanks again for bringing the tank size issue to my attention. I would not of guessed that one can go too big with a Discus tank. I will have to re-evaluate my plan of a 450 and maybe scale it down a bit to 300 ?
The fish room layout is such that Im committed to a 96" front window. If I keep with the 30" height that I planned I could go 24" deep rather than 36" originally planned. This would result in a 300 gal tank. Not sure if this is still too big?

[NP57]

Eugene, yes indeed the advice above was an eye-opener.
To answer your question; yes i plan on having a constant auto drip system so I can dedicate my maintenance time to vacuuming and tending to the sump.

[discuspaul]

Paul your words ooze with wisdom. Thanks again for bringing the tank size issue to my attention. I would not of guessed that one can go too big with a Discus tank. I will have to re-evaluate my plan of a 450 and maybe scale it down a bit to 300 ?
The fish room layout is such that Im committed to a 96" front window. If I keep with the 30" height that I planned I could go 24" deep rather than 36" originally planned. This would result in a 300 gal tank. Not sure if this is still too big?

A 300 gallon tank is never too big - for a discus-keeper who has some experience with keeping them- for an inexperienced discus-keeping novice though - I believe it would still be a challenge that flies in the face of the validity and safety of "keeping things as simple as possible" when starting out with discus.

I don't think it would be at all upsetting to your eventual plans to cut your teeth on say, a start-up modest 75 - 100 gallon tank employing a thin layer of pool filter sand, with nothing more than a couple of pieces of driftwood having a few 3 plants attached - and the tank populated with 6-8 or so medium-sized near adult discus (4" or more in size) obtained from a known source for supplying healthy, quality discus - and tending to that for a few months to get comfortable & familiar with discus-keeping, before proceeding to the large scale community display tank you're set on.
Please consider that.

[Filip]

Some sound advice already given Norb.
I would like to address your other dillemas in your post.

1.Best starting plan IMO would be a Barebottom start with discus only - full grown would be the safest choice for a begginer and for planted community setup . You add the rest of the fish few months later , after your discus are well aclimated and you ve gained some experience with them, following strict QT procedure prior mixing any new additions .Sand , decor and plants can be added later too.

2.Coridoras sterbai , Cardinal Tetra , Red rummy nose Tetra are the usuall tankmates for discus .

3.Substrate - Thin sand bottom one inch max. is most appropriate with discus because it does not trap too much dirt in it and it's failrly easy to keep it clean . You can make a couple of small zones for plants in the background with deeper sand layer in case you want to plant rooted plants .

4. You can go both rooted echinodorus and hygrophilias plants in the back and Anubias and Microsorums attached on driftwood in the middle .Real driftwood would be my choice .

5. Sump. My choice would be to invest in lots of quallity bio media (ceramic rings , sintered glass ) and cover the 90% of the sump with it , and fill only 10% - the first layer with mechanical media (thick sponge and filter floss ) which would be easy accessible for frequent cleaning .
Clean or replace mechanics bi-weekly and do not touch the biomedia at all .

Hope that helps Norb .Keep on reading and asking questions here and im sure you'll be set and ready for discus when the time comes .

[NP57]

I will take your advice and start the discuss as you described, in the 125gal that I will eventually become the sump to the large display tank. What's your thought about populating the large tank with tetras and some plants ? Assuming all goes well with the 125 gal discus tank, what's your estimate on how long before I transfer all discuss to the big tank ?
Again your advice is much appreciated
Norb

[NP57]

Filip thank you so much.
I never thought about starting with a bare bottom tank. I assumed adding sand later would stress the discus and other fish. I plan to keep plants simple non-rooted so I can keep the substrate shallow. I've heard of sumps using miracle mudd to provide trace elements and provide a thriving environment for tha refugium. Any thoughts? With the 125 gal as sump I should have plenty of room for ceramic rings and sintered glass.

[discuspaul]

I will take your advice and start the discuss as you described, in the 125gal that I will eventually become the sump to the large display tank. What's your thought about populating the large tank with tetras and some plants ? Assuming all goes well with the 125 gal discus tank, what's your estimate on how long before I transfer all discuss to the big tank ?
Again your advice is much appreciated
Norb

Assuming you're asking for my thoughts here, Norb, I'd suggest that if you start with juvenile/near adult discus in the 125 (say 4" fish) as I've described above, they will have grown to adult size in just a few months (within 3-4 months or so, which gives you reasonable time to become comfortable keeping them), at which point they'd be ready to be moved over to a 300 gal. planted tank environment, with a suitable automatic water changing system already in place.

While your discus are growing out in the 125, you could set up your moderately aqua-scaped 300 gallon with sand, plants & driftwood etc., only - ensuring that the tank gets fully cycled and ready for the discus using store some bought ammonia to supplement the plantings with development of sufficient levels of beneficial bacteria.

After adding whatever number of discus you've maintained in the 125 to this point, you could add more new discus for a total of perhaps 25-30, ensuring they are of similar size to the existing fish, obtained preferably from the same reliable source, and properly quarantined to ensure no contamination. (see the section on quarantining in my discus guide - the last Sticky in the Discus Basics for Beginners section.)

After a few weeks of acclimation to the large tank by the group of discus, only then should you begin adding groups of other selected discus-compatible fish species as tank-mates, quarantining each group separately for a brief period to ensure they're healthy, then proceeding to the single discus 'sacrificial lamb' portion of the quarantine on each occasion you do so.

Experience has taught us that it`s best, not to mention the safest and easiest approach, to always introduce discus first to any new tank environment to allow them to become comfortable and stress-free, before adding any tank-mates following suitable quarantine.
Trust you`re following this all ok - if any questions - shoot.

[NP57]

Thanks. I have learned so much in one day.
So starting with 100 neon tetras first along with some clean up crew fish would stress out the discus that followed a few months later? Very sensitive fish these Discus are .
I have spare tanks to be used as QT/Hospital tanks. I'm a firm believer in QT and will read your thread on how to QT Discus.

Questions:

Is it best to implement a constant water changing device or do bulk changes as required? I always felt a constant small change reduces stress by keeping parameters more even keeled.

Are sump refugiums used with Discus or other Cichlids ?