The Makings of a Dream -- A working journal

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

Coming into this hobby has been a spectacular experience so far and one day I aspire to make this something big where I can be a part of keeping this beautiful species alive for many years to come. Perhaps an entire room dedicated to the hobby. For now I live in a 2 bedroom apartment and have to keep my urges of expansion to a minimum. In my writings we may be able to document the journey from a 2 bedroom apartment to a whole room dedicated to Discus and friends, maybe more.

Ideally, I would like this thread to be a point of learning for not just me but anyone who may have a similar set-up as well.

This journal will more or less serve as a reference point to anyone who may show an interest in some of my many questions on the forums. Instead of going through the whole story on every chain I comment on, I will just keep a log of my day to day / couple of days here.

I will include the basics such as PH, Conductivity, Temperature, Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates as well as any behavioral notes I find interesting.

I will also note the frequency of water changes and whether or not I also vacuumed the bottom.

Incoming water is from the city and usually comes in at around 70 ppm hardness and a PH of 7.8

Lighting schedule changes will also be noted.

Pictures will also be included at a later time so that any errors I may be making in ignorance can be commented on for correction.

Currently I have two tanks.

The Community Tank (#1) is a 45 gallon "tall top". Running the tank we have a 300 watt heater, top fin air 4000 running to two air stones and a AmosiJoy EPC-650-UV. This tank is lightly planted, with 3"-4" of gravel and a small hide.
-Lighting schedule is 13 on and 11 off. This tank has a light that can be turned blue for slow adjustments to "daytime" so for an hour before and after we turn them off, we blue light them.
-Residing in the tank we have:
1- Cobalt w/ deep blue gene, (F) , 4.5" - 5"
1- Checkerboard pigeon, (M), 4" - 4.5"
1- Orange Melon, (M?), 3.5" - 4"
1- Golden checkerboard, (M?), 3.5" - 4"
1- Striated flamma rossa?, (??), 2" - 2.5"
1- White diamond, (??), 2"-2.5"
2- Angelfish, (??) , 3" - 3.5"
1- Orange lazer corydora, (??) , 1" - 1.5"
1- Green corydora, (??) , 1" - 1.5"

The Breeding Tank/Quarantine Tank (#2) is a 36 gallon "tall top with convex front". Running this tank we have another 300 watt heater, top fin air 3000 running an air stone and a Hydro-5 sponge filter with bare-bottom (BB). I do have a Reverse Osmosis system with filters on standby when the day comes my Disucs pair off, but have very little knowledge on re-introducing select nutrients as a buffer to stop my PH from crashing.
-Lighting schedule varies on if it is being used for breeding or quarantine. Breeding - Always on, Quarantine - 13 on and 11 off.
-No current residence in the tank.

7/16/2023

Tank #1

Temperature - 83 Fahrenheit

Conductivity - 230 ppm

PH - 7.6

Ammonia - 0

Nitrates - 10- 20 ppm

Nitrites - 0 ppm

Notes:
Had to lower water levels to basically an 80% water change yesterday for moving day but I've been doing 70-80% water changes in anticipation for the transfer across my dining room. Moved the tank onto new home-made stand and quickly proceeded to return aquarium to working conditions leaving the UV Light in the filter in the off position. I added 20 ML of Seachem's Stability, 5 ML of Seachem's Prime and 20 ML of API's Stress Coat. Made sure the tank was holding steady and went to bed. This morning I noticed the water temperature was lower than I would like at 82.2 Fahrenheit. I started adjusting the temperature an hour at a time to increase to desired range, 83-86 Fahrenheit. Behavior overall looks good and everyone seems to be going back to their routines. Upon observation I can see scale damage from the shakiness of the move. Nitrate levels are also concerning to me so I turned on the UV Light and proceeded to add 10 ML of Prime and 35 ML of Stress Coat. I will keep an eye on the heater as that appears to be the only thing giving me issues at the given moment.


Tank #2

Temperature - 81 Fahrenheit

Conductivity - 100

PH - 8.2

Ammonia - 0 ppm

Nitrates - 0 ppm

Nitrites - 0 ppm

Notes:
Day after moving day. I would like to note that the new rack I have built has this tank over the top of the community tank. Parameters seem to be fine but the PH is up for some reason. I won't bother with messing with it as it will be fine for now. I am waiting on my couple to mature more before I move them back into the tank and I do not think that will happen for a while. Added 5 ML of Prime and 20 ML of Stability.

MISC. Notes:
I plan on using the newly freed up entertainment center in my living for my new community tank. The dimensions for the top are 71.5" long x 15.75" wide. From my research I believe I can get away with a 75 or even 100 gallon tank with some slight modifications to extend the width by about 4" and adding proper supports for the 4" section that will be "floating". This in turn will free up the two tanks I currently have on the rack I built for a breeding/grow-out for a single generation. I have gotten close to the clutch of eggs spawning 4 times before but have always fallen short. This time for them to mature will allow me room to breath and figure out the right ways to accomplish my goal of breeding these lovely creatures while providing them with the best possible care I can give. Their colors are so vibrant and inviting; I dream to add to the plethora of colors available and one day have a strain (if you will) that I've made. This three tank rotation I feel is the best possible way I can achieve this goal while still keeping my sanity in these tight quarters.

[brewmaster15]

Kyle,
Thats a great intro and write up.I look forward to watching you grow your hobby.

One suggestion. Becareful on your heaters.. a single 300 watt heater on the 45 gal tank and the 36 gal can be a problem. If they malfunction you can quickly cook your discus . Often 2 smaller heaters are safer...at the very least consider a temp alarm. Many hobbyists have had their heaters stick on and cook their fish. With two smaller ones the risk is minimized.

Al

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

7/17/2023

Tank #1

Temperature - 84.4 Fahrenheit

Conductivity - 270 ppm

PH - 7.7

Ammonia - 0

Nitrates - 10- 20 ppm

Nitrites - 0 ppm

Notes:
Overall tank looks like its doing very well after the move. The discus are even displaying an even friendlier demeanor than normal by coming up to the glass every time I come close. I really want to get the filter inlet and outlet on the side of the tank before I show everyone a picture. Its clean but I want the first picture to be a crisp representation of the tank at its peak. Once the new community tank gets set-up this tank will be irrelevant for looks as its new purpose will be to house the potential single generation of fry. BB and a hydro 5 are my plans for this tank, as well as a plant or two. Taking into consideration the idea of redundancy I'm aiming on adding 2 200 watt heaters as well as a temperature alarm system for all of my tanks: any recommendations on brands would be greatly appreciated and encouraged as I am new to these types of controls. Usually I work on the controls for burners and boilers and some chemical feed so I have an idea of how to run basic controls and integrate them

Tank #2

Temperature - 81 Fahrenheit

Conductivity - 100

PH - 8.4

Ammonia - 0 ppm

Nitrates - 0 ppm

Nitrites - 0 ppm

Notes:
Tank is either getting an increase in PH or my PH meter is off. I am using a BlueLab PH pen and I also have the Conductivity Pen by them. I got these as I have a friend who swears by them for his... gardening habit, shall we say? If they are improper for the job I would love a suggestion for any tried and true from an experienced hobbyist at discus. Tank actually seems 100% ready for breeding pair but I want to wait until my couples mature more.

MISC. Notes:
Holding out on the new community tank for a good deal. I have 10 pounds of 120 mesh silica sand, some decently sized purple teak driftwood that I intend on planting varying types of Anubias on, 4" PVC im going to cut down and hide in a custom-made 3-D background for me to keep my filter and air stones hidden. I'm planning on using a combination of "Great Stuff - Pond and Stone" and some wire mesh moss nets to supply sufficient water flow to the filter intake. Im thinking something like a built in cory cave that ends at the mesh on the PVC. Probably adding another mesh screen up high to equalize the water level in the PVC pipe for a constant flow to the filter. The black foam should hide well on the black back of the tank and your only focal point of attention should be the fish and plants, not "what heater is that?", "what filter are you running?" or my personal favorite "Would you look at all those wires!!!". As for a filter on this tank I'm having luck with my AmosiJoy on the 45 gallon so I plan on going their route for this tank as well, any headaches associated with the brand would be valued information. Thank you to any and all following the thread and dealing with the ramblings of someone getting their bearings down. As a treat for getting this far, here's a joke: Why are fish terrible at basketball? They're afraid of nets.

[brewmaster15]

Kyle on the meters. These need to be periodically calibrated. Your friend may have the solutions ..if not they are availible on Amazon. Each model has a calibration procedure in the instructions.. it is pretty easy to do. Its really the only way to get accurate readings. If your pH is drifting up after that something in the tank could be leaching or it could be related to water changes and CO2 off gasing.
Al

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

7/18/2023

Tank #1

Temperature - 84.4 Fahrenheit

Conductivity - 240 ppm

PH - 7.8

Ammonia - 0

Nitrates - 0 - 5 ppm

Nitrites - 0 ppm

Notes:
Water change day, I was sure to remove any obstructions (very minimal) to ensure a thorough cleaning. I went through and scrapped any traces of algae off the glass surfaces of the tank before getting the gravel vacuum out. Managed to get half of the tank's bottom cleaned up before being at a 60% water change. This is one of the many reasons I'm going to recommend a BB tank or minimal substrate to any and all who ask my opinion: Too much substrate and the gravel vacuum turns into a two session ordeal. I've noticed I enjoy being quite thorough in cleaning these tanks and only being able to do a part of it at a time just makes me uneasy. All occupants seem to be happy overall and I have noticed my immature breeding pair starting to fend off others in a more than less harmless way. Seeing this makes me hopeful that one day they'll be great parents, but I wonder what a checkerboard pigeon and a cobalt blue make? All the more reason to keep up the good husbandry.

Tank #2

Temperature - 81 Fahrenheit

Conductivity - 100

PH - 8.4

Ammonia - 0 ppm

Nitrates - 0 ppm

Nitrites - 0 ppm

Notes:
Tank is holding strong, PH test from API confirms 8.4 ish. Ordered more calibration fluid anyway just to have on hand. Thanks Al for the advice. Really excited to see this new rack system ive built come to full potential but I have to take it a day at a time. Managed to get the RO Unit Mounted but need to get more 1/4" tubing to plumb it in. For anyone curious I am using the RO Buddy by AquaticLife found on amazon. I do not have the space for a holding tank unfortunately so I am having to have my wife read out a temperature from the "Finished Product" tubing and when the temperature is right (I would normally shoot for like 84 Fahrenheit when I was breeding them) she valves it off , gets it into the tank and turns the valve on. Meanwhile I would come swooping in and adjust the tubing so its breaking the surface tension on the water to almost imitate a raining effect. The current system is a bit....hectic to say the least. My new goal is to pipe the tubing to a Tee that leads to 2 valves. One valve leading to a line that will be fed into the runoff 5 gallon bucket where we can take the water's temperature before we turn on the other valve leading the tubing I will have mounted to the tank in such a way that tickles my fancies. After this innovation to the system is done I need to figure out what minerals to put into the tank while my breeding pair is in there. I have read that calcium is one of them but that was not on this forum so my trust was lost. Any guidance on what to put and how much would be greatly appreciated.

MISC. Notes:
The new community tank idea is still running through my head day and night. I've come to the conclusion that I have the space to accommodate a 125 gallon tank on my entertainment center. The "stand" is extremely sturdy and I plan on reenforcing any remotely questionable structural points if I find it necessary. This will give the current Discus I have ample room to roam and more or less "act natural" . It would even open up room to add a few fry from the potential breeding pair to my stunning series of Symphysodon. <~Say that six times fast. This doesn't change much except for my challenge in finding the properly priced beast has gotten more difficult. Any recommendations on where to find this unicorn would be appreciated as always. I've tried PetSmart (the nearest petco is 44 miles from me) and FaceBook Marketplace to no avail. Sorry my attempt at a joke last post was a pile of carp..... if you can think of any better puns you should really let minnow.

Stay fishy my friends,
Kyle

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

IMG_2410.jpg
Above is a picture of the current community tank under blue light.
Below is a picture of my immature breeding pair.
IMG_2406.jpg
I will post more pictures as time passes but here is a rough idea of what I’ve got.

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

7/20/2023

Tank #1

Temperature - 84.4 Fahrenheit

Conductivity - 280 ppm

PH - 7.8

Ammonia - 0

Nitrates - 10 - 20 ppm

Nitrites - 0.25 ppm

Notes:
I'm thinking the subtle increase of nitrites and nitrates has to do with the food. So here I would like to note that in the morning they are fed a mix of Omega One's freeze dried blood worms, Hikari Tropical vibra bites and Top fin flakes. In the PM they are eating San Francisco Bay frozen bloodworms (1-2 cubes thawed in tank water) and frozen beef heart (1 cube cut up thawed for 5 minutes on paper towel). Based on what I can find both frozen beef heart and frozen bloodworms can cause you to do more water changes due in part to the messiness of the beef heart, this in combination with the thick gravel substrate at the bottom leads to a trap for the scraps to get caught up in. They appear to eat every bit of the frozen food I put in there but maybe I should cut back. I have two small Discus in the tank that I want to help grow especially but I would like the whole tank to have enough food so they all can grow at healthy rate. In my research I have read that frequent water changes can also encourage growth by ridding the water of the hormones the bigger fish produce to stop the smaller ones from growing to a "alpha" size, so maybe the frequency in water changes from the beef heart is a good thing. Never the less I performed a 40% water change without gravel vacuum after documenting the results. I then added 85 Fahrenheit water to the tank (turning off the UV Light) while introducing 5 ML of Prime, 25 ML of Seachem's Stress Guard, 25 ML of Stability and 10 ML of Seachem's Cichlid Trace. I'm using this tank as a trial for the breeding tank to see if the discus react to the Cichlid Trace in any negative way. If all goes well I may have found my buffer for the RO unit when the breeding program continues. This will HOPEFULLY stop the previous issues I was having with PH spiraling in old breeding set-up. Any advice on any of these matters is always welcome (Shout out to Al for always having some positive inputs) .


Tank #2

Temperature - 81 Fahrenheit

Conductivity - 100

PH - 8.4

Ammonia - 0 ppm

Nitrates - 0 ppm

Nitrites - 0 ppm

Notes:
Tank is holding wonderfully still. Finally got the RO system plumbed in, No leak checks yet as I have no reason to start a new filter and the previous one is reading 40 ppm last I checked. Not to mention the run-off water was turning brown so its time for a new one.

MISC. Notes:
I have found a LPS that seems to be keen to help me in my search for the 120 gallon tank. They even went as far as to ask me what fish I had and what my set-up looked like, this interaction has got to be my favorite one because not only did we establish a great relationship; they were also curious as to when my immature breeding pair was going to be producing and that they'd love to work something out. They have a 125 gallon cichlid tank in their fish section and the head of the department really seems to be genuinely interested on locally raised discus. I will say this after all my running around SE Mi ; When wanting to expand your knowledge and resources there is no better place than a ma-and-pop LPS. The big brands are nice when you know what you want and you know they have it but the personable local place will go out of their way to help someone who seems passionate. I hope one day to see fish I've raised for sale in a store for others to have a piece of my passion. One day I hope I can send them directly to your front door. Until then my fly fish dreams will have to stand grounded... or watered? Never the less thank you to all who keep a tab open for this adventure I have going on, and a special thanks to any and all that have any inputs. What kind of vehicle do Discus go to war in? A Fish Tank... I'll see myself out.

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

IMG_2493.jpg

So I’ve come to the conclusion I will have to come across a 110 gallon tank when I’ve moved to bigger spaces. Instead to achieve my “in the meantime” goal I’ve set up and started cycling a 75 gallon tank to replace my current community tank.

I’d like to note I’m going to experiment on wavemakers and aggression in this tank and have set up the driftwood as a blocker of some nature to prevent too much flow to make the fish stressed.

I have settled on attempting to hide my heaters and equipment through foliage rather than setting up a 3D background. I feel that the best way to hide all of the equipment possible will be through a sump system. This will allow me to put my heaters and bubblers in the sump while only having to hide an overflow in the show tank. I’m loving the black background so far with the beige/off-white sand. The tannins from the driftwood also add a very pleasing tea color to the tank.

I’ve read that tannins are great for fish and keeping them healthy and want to explore more into the ability to control the tannin levels in the water. I know the driftwood will eventually stop producing them over time so this may be for the better as I have not seen what the discus will look like in this tea colored water.

On the note of health I would like to add a nervous update to the log and the reason as to why I haven’t been entering in it.

During one of my routine checks I noticed one of my fish was distancing herself from the group . In fact there was another fish who was distanced from the group and lost a little bit of coloring from their face. After a few hours of observation and a couple of feedings where I was looking more closely at the suspected fish I noticed that all of my fish were eating and the one who had lost some color in his face was the schools usual victim for bullying it seems. This led me to believe the loss of vibrancy in just the face and the social separation is attributed to the stress from the bullying. Now I zoned in on the other suspect. I feared the worst.

The discus showed signs of what I’d guess to be home in the head syndrome. After further research I discovered that it is caused by not one thing but sometimes a culmination of things from water condition to parasites. I read of the main culprit (hexa-something or another the name escapes me now) can be treated and will help cure the hole in the head syndrome.

My female in the breeding pair that developed in my tank is the confirmed patient after I see white stringy excrement and cloudy eyes. There is also this other thing that’s driving me CRAZY: the area around her mouth (on one side more than the other) is turning a pale white! I can’t for the life of me find what could be causing this or even what it is.

I believe to have caught it before it’s gotten too out of hand but as a precaution I am treating the whole tank with SeaChem’s metroplex and sulfaplex in their food. I was mixing 1 scoop of metro and sulfa in 2 cubes of frozen bloodworms with a half a capful of SeaChem’s Garlic Guard and giving to the whole tank twice a day. Once in the am and once in the pm. I have continued doing a water change every other day as this seems to be the best schedule to keep my nitrates below 40 ppm.

I already had the UV Light turned off from the SeaChem Stabalizer treatment I was in the process of doing so I was good to go for the treatment to start.

On day 2 her fins became more clamped and bent over, I’m fearing the worst at this point.

On day 5 I started adding 1 scoop of focus to their food mixture as well.

By day 6 my female is beginning to hang out with the school again; even the other bullied discus is grouping up. Her eye seems to have cleared up. The white around my females mouth has begun to recede towards her lips. Still not a clue as to what it is but the medicine combination seems to be working. I’m noticing her fins unclamp when I come up and say hello to the tank so she is observant and aware of the exterior (good signs?)

I plan on continuing this treatment for 14 days total to be sure I’ve killed off any and all parasites in the tank.

Before moving everyone over I’m going to use my breeding tank as a quarantine tank to give everyone a API General cure treatment for a week before transferring them into their new 75 gallon community tank. I will not put all my fish in at once into the 75 gallon, it will start with the angelfish , then the discus and to finish it off the Corys.

I can then rid myself of the snail infestation in the old community tank (will become single generation grow-out tank) while giving my wet pets a whole new space to play in and grow.


Any sort of guidance on what I’m doing is practical or not? I also got some of SeaChem’s PolyGuard as a worst case scenario.

Thanks in advance everyone !

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

Well guys I finally moved the healthy fish into their new home.

After about two weeks or so of medicating the whole school of fish to fight the illness in the tank, I’ve moved the most problematic fish into a hospital tank and moved the remaining discus to their new 75 gallon home. Without everyone’s help I wouldn’t have noticed that my angelfish were taking a large sum of the daily feedings (I observed after becoming more aware) which was contributing to the stress of the discus. This made me decide to give the healthy angelfish to my stepdaughters tank so they can be top of the food chain there.

So in total to update my stock list:

75 gallon - 4 discus and 2 Cory cats
IMG_2624.jpg

IMG_2642.jpg

36 gallon (hospital/breeding tank) - 1 discus
image.jpg

45 gallon (grow out tank) - a whole slew of Malaysian trumpet snails and assassin snails.

To update the hospital tanks status we are on day 4 of treating her water with a combination of aquarium salt, pure epsom salt, prazipro and metroplex.

Her conductivity is so high I’ve seen industrial boilers that could pass less electricity but overall she seems to really enjoy it. It appears she may have eaten some food but it’s hard to tell. She has to have; otherwise I think she would’ve starved to death by now. She is swimming on the tank, not flashing. Her breathing appears the same still. The scarring I was seeing on her has since healed. Her pale/white lip may be getting some color back around the edges where it was receding but it’s hard to tell.

When they say it’s easy to keep a health fish healthy: to get a sick fish healthy is an ordeal that takes time and patience.
, they mean it. I believe the knowledge I’ve gained on this forum saved my breeding females life. Without Al’s guidance on medication or a few people noticing my angelfish looked great while my discus were stressed, I could have very easily killed my entire stock. I’ve had checkers (my breeding male) since he was about 2.5” and losing him would’ve hurt.

Now thanks to all of you I have 4 healthy happy discus in their new home. I will continue to update my journal with parameters and any outcomes I may come across, as well as any questions I have paved on the forum boards.

Oh a question in regards to stocking the 75 . When my breeding female gets better I plan on putting her in the 75 with everyone. This will take my total to 5 discus and 2 Cory catfish. My question is: would one more discus and a 3 more Cory catfish (QT FOR 5 WEEKS) be a wise decision to bring my number to an even 6 discus and 5 cory catfish?
- I’ve heard Corys do well in a school and seeing the two of them in that big 75 looks a little sad. I’ve heard they do minimal effect to the bio load on the tank but as always I seek the advice of the sages.
- an even amount of discus for a better chance at breeding pairs as time goes on??

Thanks again everyone, as always stay fishy my friends.

[brewmaster15]

The 75 looks very good and the fish look markedly less stressed! Tank looks good ...and yes you can add more fish after lengthy quarantine. I would really suggest though you find a supplier / sponsor that is well regarded. It can make your life so much easier and your much more enjoyable!


On the sick fish... She looks about the same to me.. At this point I would stop all medications, and the epsom salt. The sodium chloride can stay a bit. I think its pretty cleat that what ever this fish has, its not being helped by the current meds..It happens sometime like that, some bacteria's respond to one med and not another. The question is what do you wish to do at this point. Most Discus keeps would probably euthanize this fish as its a risk to their healthy fish. Some Hobbyists do not throw in the towel. Thats a choice you need to make though. I would personally euthanize the fish if it was mine.Because its a threat and out of mercy for the fish itself.. Thats me... not everyone feels the same in these cases.


If you want to continue, there are other things to try but the odds go down as time and treatments go on.


al

[brewmaster15]

You can find these at lFS or Amazon....

https://fritzaquatics.com/products/mardel-maracyn-2

contains minocycline

https://fritzaquatics.com/products/mardel-maracyn
Erythromycin

The two can be used together to make a very broad spectrum combination.

al

[MichiganDiscusEnthusiast]

Day three of having the 75 gallon running with fish and I have to say that the fish agree with you Al.
I can now confirm every discus in the tank (aside from the striated red) have laid eggs.

This has completely blown me away. I have now visually seen checkers (what I thought was my male!) laying eggs on day one and day two. Day one another discus ate the eggs. I assume this was because of the new environment. But day two I came home to see not just checkers laying eggs, but the discus who ate the eggs(we called him Richard) was laying eggs too!

I was shocked and so happy. I know that nothing will come of this but it means they’re healthy and happy if nothing else. Then came day three, today. Yet another fish is laying eggs! The first two chose the driftwood leaned up in front of the tank, but this lady chose to lay on the stalks of one of my plants.

Absolutely incredible to be able to witness such natural beauty in front of my very eyes.

To update on the hospital tank: I know that some people may choose to euthanize what I know think is my mature male (as opposed to prior to the miracles of the 75) but I am choosing to fight this battle for a bit longer. I am glad I made this decision as I noticed yesterday more color in their excrement. They also handled the daily water change a bit better than normal. Today I went to feed him(?) the daily dose of 6 bloodworms. He(?) came up to the baster I used to feed and showed attentiveness , though hesitant. I carefully fished out a small squirt of about 8 bloodworms that he(?) followed to the bottom at a decent pace. I can confirm that they are eating as of today. It’s a small step but I feel it’s some progress I can see.

I plan to keep the medications up in the hospital tank for another week or so. If they don’t show any more signs of improvement I will be asking the best possible way to euthanize a fish. I know I will have to get used to this practice (culling for good genes) but it’s still something I wish to do as humanely as possible.

Thanks again for everything and I hope everyone has a great weekend! Stay fishy my friends.