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Thread: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

  1. #16

    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    I love a good debate just so long as no gets mad and kicks me out of the club and I'm even more confused about discus then ever now you're telling me fry cannot survive unless they have a bare bottom tank so now I'm imaging the amazon with a pristine glass bottom and ceramic breeding cones, the research I've done says discus breed on plant leaves mainly swords and I know for a fact that fry will survive in a planted tank and if I could get my pictures to post I could show you. Dee

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    I was able to grow very large plants in my 75gal. Discus tanks. I planted in clay pots and had a bare bottom tank. Anubias and large swords were my plants. Of course i had already been raising multitudes of fish for decades so my husbandry of tanks was well honed. My fish laid eggs multiple times a month and I had free swimmers often. BUT if you are after spawning and raising fry to adulthood this is no way near the optimum way to go about it.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dee1958 View Post
    I love a good debate just so long as no gets mad and kicks me out of the club and I'm even more confused about discus then ever now you're telling me fry cannot survive unless they have a bare bottom tank so now I'm imaging the amazon with a pristine glass bottom and ceramic breeding cones, the research I've done says discus breed on plant leaves mainly swords and I know for a fact that fry will survive in a planted tank and if I could get my pictures to post I could show you. Dee
    The way I came to understand it is as follows. Discus are RIVER fish. Meaning there are millions of gallons of fresh, acidic water constantly flowing in their natural environment. Our tanks are far from rivers - clean ponds at best. In addition, most of us don’t have the low pH to keep bacteria levels low. Therefore the best bet is a bare bottom tank with heavy water changes to at least try to recreate these river conditions.

    It can be either disheartening or enlightening, but I think the true issue is we are trying to keep river fish in home made ponds (aquariums).

  4. #19
    Silver Member Willie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dee1958 View Post
    I love a good debate just so long as no gets mad and kicks me out of the club and I'm even more confused about discus then ever now you're telling me fry cannot survive unless they have a bare bottom tank so now I'm imaging the amazon with a pristine glass bottom and ceramic breeding cones, the research I've done says discus breed on plant leaves mainly swords and I know for a fact that fry will survive in a planted tank and if I could get my pictures to post I could show you. Dee
    We don't need to fight about this. Regardless of how one feels about planted vs barebottom tanks, I can tell you that fry will not grow into adult discus in a planted tank.

    Willie
    At my age, everything is irritating.

  5. #20
    MVP Oct.2015 discuspaul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    Quote Originally Posted by modealings View Post
    The way I came to understand it is as follows. Discus are RIVER fish. Meaning there are millions of gallons of fresh, acidic water constantly flowing in their natural environment. Our tanks are far from rivers - clean ponds at best. In addition, most of us don’t have the low pH to keep bacteria levels low. Therefore the best bet is a bare bottom tank with heavy water changes to at least try to recreate these river conditions.

    It can be either disheartening or enlightening, but I think the true issue is we are trying to keep river fish in home made ponds (aquariums).

    This is a very good commentary to explain away why we need to do what we say needs to be done to raise discus successfully in a box-sized aquarium environment vs. the natural Amazon tributaries conditions.
    Think about it.

  6. #21
    Registered Member Kwiege's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    This is exactly why I don’t post alot. Disputes on what to do and how to do it. Everyone that has discus fish encounter many different water types, filtration, water changes, etc....please give advise that is not putting down the newer person joining the site. Not everyone has options as many of the mentors do on this site as far as space, time etc...I totally enjoy reading and looking at all the new pictures and stories of the new enthusiasts that have decided on trying to keep this fish. Yes, it is challenging but I love these fish and personally do whatever I can to keep them healthy and happy. No one wants sick fish. Just think before you comment to posts. Try to be positive

  7. #22
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dee1958 View Post
    I love a good debate just so long as no gets mad and kicks me out of the club and I'm even more confused about discus then ever now you're telling me fry cannot survive unless they have a bare bottom tank so now I'm imaging the amazon with a pristine glass bottom and ceramic breeding cones, the research I've done says discus breed on plant leaves mainly swords and I know for a fact that fry will survive in a planted tank and if I could get my pictures to post I could show you. Dee
    Dee, your pictures need to be 2MBs or less to upload. Would love to see your fry in a planted tank.
    Pat
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  8. #23
    Registered Member bluelagoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    Most of those plants seen in the Amazon water ways are mostly terrestrial and not aquatic. Simply the Amazon floods in the rainy season causing this. Usually their environment is trees, logs and murky, but clean water. Not a clear looking planted tank like we admire.

  9. #24
    Registered Member slicksta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    I too admire planted aquariums but after doing much reading its not for me at this point as the complications require more effort and I'm just not willing to commit.
    That said the barebottem extremist make me laugh as they preach its the only right way to keep discus. I've successfully kept discus for years in a community tank with driftwood, sand and some fake plants. Have I had a loss here and there... Sure. But no more than I read on here that the barebottem people have. And unlike them I haven't used the onslaught of meds often recommended on here.
    On the related topic to the bb'ers is their never ending quest for the perfect shape, sized and patterned fish. As with overbred so called pure breed dogs, they are creating a nice looking animal that have a weak and compromised gene pool. That combined with a sterile environment leads to a weak immune system and the fish that are being produced can only survive in a similar sterile environment.

    Ok... That's my 2 cent rant :-D
    Last edited by slicksta; 05-28-2019 at 09:05 AM.

  10. #25

    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Hand Pat View Post
    Dee, your pictures need to be 2MBs or less to upload. Would love to see your fry in a planted tank.
    Pat
    Pat I'm not real techy but I will give it another shot. Dee

  11. #26
    Registered Member pastry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    I haven't really seen anything that points out any sort of heated debate (maybe a few minor comments). Dear God we've seen enough of those on this topic before. But I never want to shy away from this subject because I really do want to always learn any breakthroughs on keeping discus in substrate and planted tanks.

    I hesitated joining this latest thread but due to my interest in having a healthy discussion unlike how previous discussions on this topic turned out + I might have had a few cocktails for some liquid motivation

    I have had fry born in my community tank and grow up. Only a few but because I only do two water changes a week at 65 to 70% man they really did not get as close to the discus I bought from sponsors on here of which I received when they were anywheres from 2 and a half inches to 4 and 1/2 in. So of course I proved to myself with my own water change routine that mine would not grow as well as a bare bottom. I have certainly scene and witnessed firsthand a few who have grown some Giants in planted tanks which the same fish were born in that tank but realistically there was only one tank and that hobbyist used well water of which to this day I swear is the Fountain of Youth! That water should certainly go to a lab to be dissected to see why the hell it grows anything and everything as big as it does. I filled a few jugs up myself to see if it made anything else bigger
    -Elliot

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    With a light sprinkle of peppering of course.



    When I made this thread asking for a definition it wasn't based specifically on the debates I had seen here. More so the debate I had seen everywhere... First and foremost I have a lot of respect for everyone on both sides of this issue. Your thoughts and your postings really is a wealth of knowledge and part of the reason I can approach keeping this species with some confidence. That said, from the outside looking in stumbling across this debate can seem like a minefield. I genuinely didn't have a clue as to why there were opposing sides with some vehemently (again not here specifically but around the hobbyist sections of the web) saying it shouldn't even be considered.

    I hold my hand up super high and say that personally I'm nowhere near as experienced as some of you are when it comes to discus. But once the argument was been laid out in it's pure form I must admit to feeling some confidence. There are so many ways around the issue of dirt and detritus collecting and causing problems. From the type of plants used through to the aqua scape itself.

    Watching the Discus interact with the planted setup, watching them dance, play and swim in and among the plants isn't a sight I'd give up willingly. I have been video documenting the "journey" so to speak and will share that with you all in the next two weeks or so. I think a distinction should be made between those with knowledge in the planted tank arena those that don't. I mean, I'm far from a planted expert but on the other hand still experienced enough to attempt to build a planted tank around the species.

  13. #28
    Registered Member Pices's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post
    I'm one of those bare bottom guys. After butting heads many, many times, I've come to realize it's really a matter of your objective. I see three objectives for discus keepers:

    #1. Nice community tank with plants and substrate. (Not an authentic discus biotope, but I accept people just want to have a nice looking tank.)
    #2. Specimen tank. No compromise, just the best looking fish.
    #3. Breeding tank. No compromise. Maximize the chance for spawn to survive.

    We all started with #1. I've done #3. Now I just focus on #2. Great food, heavy water changes, cull ruthlessly. It's a beauty contest and only the best get to stay. Obviously that doesn't work if the objective is either #1 or #3.

    If your focus is #1, just understand that it's a compromise. The tank conditions will be suboptimal for both discus, other fish and the plants. Having said that, there are lots of things going for #1. Usually the spouse doesn't complain. You also get total freedom to add whatever you want to the tank. Finally, discus coloration is deepened with foliage in the background. But you will not achieve #2 or #3. As long as the focus is clear, you'll be successful. Some people expect to achieve all three objectives. We call these people newbies.

    So good luck on whichever approach you choose to take, Willie

    P.S. Discus fry will not survive in anything but a bare bottom tank. That's the real mistake most new hobbyists make.

    Very well put Willie. It’s this kind of input that makes this such a great thread.
    Patty
    If the discus are happy, I’m happy

  14. #29
    Registered Member Pices's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    Quote Originally Posted by modealings View Post
    The way I came to understand it is as follows. Discus are RIVER fish. Meaning there are millions of gallons of fresh, acidic water constantly flowing in their natural environment. Our tanks are far from rivers - clean ponds at best. In addition, most of us don’t have the low pH to keep bacteria levels low. Therefore the best bet is a bare bottom tank with heavy water changes to at least try to recreate these river conditions.

    It can be either disheartening or enlightening, but I think the true issue is we are trying to keep river fish in home made ponds (aquariums).
    I love this explanation Eric. I couldn’t have said it more eloquently.
    Patty
    If the discus are happy, I’m happy

  15. #30
    Registered Member slicksta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post
    I'm one of those bare bottom guys. After butting heads many, many times, I've come to realize it's really a matter of your objective. I see three objectives for discus keepers:

    #1. Nice community tank with plants and substrate. (Not an authentic discus biotope, but I accept people just want to have a nice looking tank.)
    #2. Specimen tank. No compromise, just the best looking fish.
    #3. Breeding tank. No compromise. Maximize the chance for spawn to survive.

    We all started with #1. I've done #3. Now I just focus on #2. Great food, heavy water changes, cull ruthlessly. It's a beauty contest and only the best get to stay. Obviously that doesn't work if the objective is either #1 or #3.

    If your focus is #1, just understand that it's a compromise. The tank conditions will be suboptimal for both discus, other fish and the plants. Having said that, there are lots of things going for #1. Usually the spouse doesn't complain. You also get total freedom to add whatever you want to the tank. Finally, discus coloration is deepened with foliage in the background. But you will not achieve #2 or #3. As long as the focus is clear, you'll be successful. Some people expect to achieve all three objectives. We call these people newbies.

    So good luck on whichever approach you choose to take, Willie

    P.S. Discus fry will not survive in anything but a bare bottom tank. That's the real mistake most new hobbyists make.
    I'm always amazed at the bravado of those who feel free to exploit another species on the planet.
    It's bad enough what we do with our food supply but at least with that you can argue that the intent is nobile.
    But to do it for perceived beauty and perfection that has no basis in science is inexcusable

    You broke my heart Willie. . . You broke my heart. . .

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