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Thread: Hero fish question...

  1. #31
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    Hey Danny, here's how Al does his QT process. This post is post #88 in this thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...uestions/page6.

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Hi all,
    Just saw this and thought I would update. I do much of what I always have done.. though I do tailor it a bit different depending on the condition the fish come in...

    For those interested..I had done several Discus Disease and Health Presentations over the years... The following are from a few pages of that presentation. HTH, al

    Suggested Quarantine Procedures...
    Receive fish: Place into a clean tank with aged (well aerated/pH stable warm water (85-87F). Use a well cycled bio filter.
    Week One: Many Frequent water changes, observe fish behavior, and treat for anything specifically noted******. Be sure all fish are eating well and passing normal feces.
    Week Two: Prophylactic deworming with Praziquantel for tape worms, several days latter deworm with general dewormer (levamisole) added to water as 24 hour bath
    Week Three: Repeat Levamisole as 24 hour bath
    Week Four: Let rest, nothing but water changes.
    Week Five: Re-dose with Levamisole as 24 hour bath
    Week Six: Quarantine is over if the fish are looking healthy and eating well and are not to be mixed with existing stock. If these are to be mixed with existing stock..add least favorite of existing stock (aka Test fish) to new fishes stock.
    Week Six-Week Eight: Observe new stock and test fish. If all is well, most likely safe to mix all fish.
    **** important note

    Quarantine Common Sense:
    Maintain complete separation of new stock from existing livestock.
    Use separate nets, hoses, buckets, and siphons for each quarantine tank.
    Separate rooms are much safer than in room quarantines.
    Perform all maintenance on new stock’s quarantine tank after you are done with all existing tanks.
    Wash hands and arms thoroughly after working in tanks.
    Maintain optimum water quality, less stress means healthier fish
    Tank should have a fully cycled bio-filter. Quarantining a group of fish is not the time to be cycling a tank!!!
    Be vigilant… catching and treating a problem early on is better than latter when it may be harder or impossible to treat.

    Brews Top 11 Discus Health Issues
    1. Chemical Poisoning: Chlorine, Chloramine, ammonia, nitrite, heavy metals (ex. copper and iron), Medications. Suggested treatment…clean water and lots of it!
    2. Dissolved gases: Low dissolved oxygen or high dissolved C02/nitrogen etc. Suggested treatment ...age and aerate water.
    3. Improper Shipping and Handling Techniques: Suggested treatment…prophylactic screening of suppliers and buying only from reputable ones.
    4. Improper care of Discus at Vendor’s Shop: Suggested treatment…prophylactic screening of suppliers and buying from reputable ones.
    5. Well meaning but inappropriate or inaccurate advice. Suggested course of action…Check references…information abounds in the internet and pet shops, both good and bad info.
    Improper care of Discus on the part of the hobbyist. To keep any fish, a basic knowledge of species requirements and needs exists…Discus require a bit more than basic knowledge. Suggested treatment…Learn as much as you can!!
    7. Poor Tank Hygiene Syndrome: Suggested treatment….Be less stingy with the water changes and maintenance.
    8. “Charlie Brown Christmas Tree Syndrome” A fish that is sickly or poor quality when you buy it isn’t going to miraculously turn into a beautiful specimen. Suggestion..start with obviously healthy stock, not obviously sickly or low grade stock.
    9. Hobbyist Mediated Pandemic: Occurs when a hobbyist recklessly acquires many specimens in a short period of time from multiple sources…mixing these together with existing stock then leads to Immune Overload..aka..sick fish. Suggested treatment….Learn patience and adhere to a sound Quarantine plan!!
    10. Nutritional deficiencies…Largely unknown how this affects Discus specifically.. But what we do know is that every animal needs an adequate diet.. Suggestion…feed a varied diet to your discus of quality foods.

    And finally…… Number 11!!!!


    11. Gill flukes, external and internal protozoans, nematodes, bacterial infections, viruses, “plagues”etc…..

    Why is this one listed last in a talk about Discus Diseases and health you may ask?…

    Because! If you pay attention to the first 10 conditions mentioned you may not even need to worry about number 11! A healthy fish that has all its needs taken care of and is not stressed has an innate advantage when dealing with diseases and illness..
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  2. #32
    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    Thanks so much Pat!! Very concise and clear. I appreciate you finding that posting this for me!

  3. #33
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    Quote Originally Posted by danotaylor View Post
    Thanks Jeep. Great explanation of the reasoning behind you process. Bummer about the eruptions. I wasn't aware hormones or certain color enhancers could cause organ failure. My 2 red albinos were deep red when Dennis 1st imported them from Malaysia. After a few months they had faded to a light peach. I still love em, but now I am extra glad they didn't have the same fate as your eruptions since clearly they we fed some heavy enhancers by the Malaysian breeder.
    Color enhancers are one thing, but hormones or other drugs are another. Color enhancers can be found in many commercial foods and are perfectly safe. Anasthaxin is a common enhancer and is found naturally in some algae. This is where lobster, shrimp and salmon get their pink colors from. It can actually be a very good dietary supplement (for humans as well) and I use it in my BH mix, although sparingly and probably not enough to change the color of my fish. I'm not sure if you can OD with it. Hormones are used by some breeders to bring out premature spotting or intense reds in very young fish so they can be separated and command a higher price under a different name. If used improperly, they can cause organ damage that can show up much later down the road, as I suspect happened to mine. Very unethical!!!

    I imagine you could use something like anasthaxin to safely bring back the reds in your fish if you ever had the desire...

  4. #34
    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    Thanks Brian.

    Up until recently I steered clear of all commercial foods because of the enhancers. Not sure if you recall, but I had a super clean pigeon based bright royal yellow I bought with my initial group. I didn't want him to turn orange so I just fed pure deer heart. Now that I have sold him as a proven pair with 1 of my PB red melon females I am open to using commercial foods. My PB Marlb Yellow already has some red & orange naturally so it's no big deal to me if it's colors become more intense.
    Thank you for your response mate! I appreciate your input.

    When adding tetras etc is the same QT process used? Can I mix all my dithers together and watch for 6 wks, then add a hero?

  5. #35
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    I try not to say this too much, but I use Tetra Color Granules. It's high in protein and great for reds. It was highly used years ago but there are so many others now that people use and there seems to be another favorite popping up regularly. All my fish take to it fast and it's easy to use when in a hurry.

    I'm really not sure about QT on your other fish. I've never done it (yet), but if it were me, I would combine all the tetras and such, get them over QT then use a hero discus afterwards as you would any other QT

  6. #36
    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    Perfect mate, that's what I was thinking. I'll be your crash test dummy

  7. #37
    Registered Member slicksta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    Quote Originally Posted by jeep View Post
    I try not to say this too much, but I use Tetra Color Granules. It's high in protein and great for reds. It was highly used years ago but there are so many others now that people use and there seems to be another favorite popping up regularly. All my fish take to it fast and it's easy to use when in a hurry.

    I'm really not sure about QT on your other fish. I've never done it (yet), but if it were me, I would combine all the tetras and such, get them over QT then use a hero discus afterwards as you would any other QT
    Yup... That's what I do with my community.

    Same goes for the Color Granules :-D

  8. #38
    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    Thanks you blokes, and Pat as well!!

  9. #39
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    Quote Originally Posted by danotaylor View Post
    Thanks you blokes, and Pat as well!!
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  10. #40
    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    So I have had to divide the hero fish from the other 4 today. He's wasn't generally aggressive but at feeding time he pushed the others away. I even tried 5 separate smaller FDBW pieces spread full length along the front glass and he just marauded along scaring the others off so he could guts himself. Since he's already 6" and I wanna get another 1"+ on the others during the QT period, the divider is essential. Looks ugly as a hat full of bum holes but you get that sometimes I suppose

  11. #41
    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    So as some you know I am in the process of carrying out the hero fish strategy in an attempt to combine some Asian discus I purchased and some of the SS juvies from Al's lovely pair. I have owned the Asian discus since Sept last year and have watched them carefully and have had 0 health issues. I acquired fish several months ago from 2 batches of fry from Al's SS pair from our friend Tom. I combined the 2 groups as Tom was on the verge of doing so himself and had a run in with Hex 6 weeks ago which was successfully treated with Metro 500mg/10gal for 10 days. Since then I have watched the SS group closely and had 0 further health issues.

    Last weekend I began the hero fish phase of the process. Both groups were healthy & strong, eating well, good color, very social. All was well for 4 days then on Fri I started to notice the SS were acting weird, off their food, skittish, darker, breathing rapidly. Sat am when I came home from work 1 of the smaller SS was dead. I was totally blown away as both groups separately were going strong.

    I am still not totally sure of the diagnosis but without doubt the SS were susceptible to a pathogen the Asian discus carry & are immune too. I was quickly & ably assisted by 2 of our SD moderators here, praise the Lord! I applied the advice I was given and added 5 measured cups of sea salt to my 75gal tank (1tbsp/gal) after a 90% water change with aged water. Saturday evening their color was still dark but better, respirations are much slower, and they were not thrashing about the tank when I approach it. Sun am 2 of the 3 remaining SS came to the front glass like they wanted to eat. Phew...

    Tonight (Sunday) before coming to work I was using an online converter to change cups to grams of dry weight so I could dose the 125gal and clean the other Asian discus. I realized that I had under dosed the recommended salt quantity by 2 whole cups, yikes! Because of the great response to the 3 cups I had already added, I added another 2 cups to make the concentration what was recommended. I will update again after I see what's going on when I get home after work in the morning.

    I must admit it felt super crazy putting 5 cups of sea salt in my fresh water aquarium, but the advice came from experienced keepers who have proven the method on their own discus. Also, I was in a situation where I was gonna lose all the SS anyway, so what did I have to lose?

    Clearly now I have to treat the remaining adult Asian discus in my 125gal before I can combine them all together, but time is on my side to get that done.

    All that to say that mixing discus from different sources is a gamble, even when the appropriate QT measures are followed. When they are not followed it I guess it is more like Russian roulette...
    Last edited by danotaylor; 06-24-2019 at 04:13 AM.

  12. #42
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    Hi Danny, hope things are continuing to look up and that is a lot of salt but it sure can make a difference.

    I added two cups of salt to my contest fish (40 breeder) because one of the smaller ones was self isolating and not eating (normal poop). Yesterday morning it was actually out with the group so that is progress. I continued the salt with last nights water change.
    Pat
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  13. #43
    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    Thanks Pat. Glad your guy respond to the salt treat as well. Seems counterintuitive to add that much salt to a species tank that originally comes out of the soft TDS 0 waters of the Amazon. Glad they can handle it and the pathogens can't! Yay for salt!!

    I will update my situation later today sometime ��

  14. #44
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    I'm glad things are looking up!! Discus seem fragile but they really are pretty resilient!!

  15. #45
    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hero fish question...

    Mods plz delete #41, it's a duplicate.

    So all 3 SS are alive today. 2 are active and eating FDBW. The 3rd still looks a bit rough. I got called in for my on call shift tonight so I will have my wc aged/salted and ready for when I get home in the morning.

    Wondering if furan 2 be ordered in bulk from jehmco? Will research from work tonite...

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