Dark Discus - very few signs of problems - But YES - this is MY fault. :(

[paige350z]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
I added 1 new discus and 13 cardinal tetras two weeks ago, along with 1 new plant. No, I didn't quarantine, as I don't have a spare tank - let alone one big enough to properly QR a discus that size. So yes - I already know this is my fault. Only 1 cardinal left - at least half of them had their guts hanging out, so I suspect the discus have been randomly picking them off. However, I lost one of my existing 4" discus a couple of days ago. No external signs that I could see, and I have no idea how long he'd been swimming upside down or laying on the bottom. My family had been out late, and we found him like that upon our return. I immediately pulled him out, put him in a tote with shallow water, added an air stone, hiked up the temp from 84 to 88 degrees, and added some aquarium salt. He seemed to improve for the first 10-15 minutes, but then declined rapidly, dying only 10-15 minutes later. The rest of the discus LOOK fine... except they are not as quick to eat (but they still do, though more timidly) and are staying darker than is normal. They lighten up for a few hours after WCs, but they are dark again by morning, staying this darker tint until the next WC. They are hiding more than is usual. No external signs that I can see. No white specks (although I AM finding these on the driftwood in the tank, which is new). Nothing on fins, fish, or gills. The addition of the new discus was to see if I could calm the pecking order going on in the tank. The largest was overly aggressive to the others, but the new one was bigger, so I'd hoped he'd chill. That's not been the case, and the plan was to take him up to the LFS if I couldn't make a more peaceful tank out of this grouping. (The aggressor is NOT the one that died.)


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Hiding more (maybe 40% of the time they would normally be swimming freely), slow to eat, turning dark, but no excess slime, clamped fins, or gills. My discus have always been "nervous" fish and spook easily, which is why I added the cardinals. I kept reading that they help the discus to calm down and relax, and when one freaks out, they all do, so I've been afraid they would eventually hurt themselves. My LFS (an hour away) is reputable, and they said all their fish had been treated/wormed, etc.. And instead of greeting me at feeding time, the discus hide when I approach the tank, and then come out in a couple of minutes to eat.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
I haven't treated yet, because I can't tell what is wrong. I *may* have seen a white poop suspended in the water, but before I could get a closer look, the filter sucked it up. It could have been plant matter, but I can't be sure. I have not seen ANY poop hanging from the fish, but there is the normal amount of dark poop that I'm vacuuming up.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
36-gallon bowfront. Now 3 discus - 2 that I've had since February '19 ranging in size from 3-4.5 inches. 1 new discus purchased 2 weeks ago, 5 inches. 1 cardinal tetra. 1 snowball pleco, 2 inches, got in December '18.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
80% every other day, but have increased this to daily, due to fish symptoms.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Tank has been cycled and stocked since December '18. Sand substrate, 1-1.5 inches thick, planted for visual blocks. 1 medium sized piece of driftwood for pleco. HOB filter with pre-filter, sponge pad, and cotton floss. Ziss filter inside tank. 1 lava rock air stone.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
No - treated from the tap in buckets with API Stress Coat+. Have been wanting to switch to Prime, but have been waiting to use up my API bottle first. My maintenance routine/products used has not changed during any of this time. I have only increased the frequency, due to apparent fish stress.

8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp _88____

- ph _7.6____

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading _5___

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water __0__

- municipal water _100%___

- RO water __0__


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
See above.

10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
Staple diet is Discus BioGold micro pellets + 1 cube of dried tubifex worms 1x weekly + dried bloodworms every other day + NutriDiet Discus flakes 1x/day. Will happily take recommendations for other foods that aren't frozen or live. Have been planning on adding dried blackworms but haven't done it yet. :/


11. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
N/A

[paige350z]

Also - when they are not hiding, they are active, and mostly as a group, although there are still times where the original aggressor continues to terrorize the smallest one. Seriously - if they didn't turn dark, I might just think the hiding was a normal part of them all acclimating together. The death of the other discus may be totally unrelated and resembled a swim bladder issue caused by some sort of trauma or injury, but that has me really watching the tank to make sure it's not something more serious, due to the addition of the new fish. Any preventative maintenance or protocol I could follow would be most appreciated!

Smallest - 3.5 inches - Leopard
Aggressor - 4.5 inches - Red Tiger
New Fish - 5 inches - Pigeon Snakeskin

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Paige, I would suggest adding a cup and a half (24 tablespoons) of salt to your tank and see if that helps the fish. Not sure how that will work with plants however.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Post a pic if you can, Paige. Also, if you have not already check your water for a change in pH after aging. Test your water straight from the tap first, then fill a bucket with water. drop in an air store, let it bubble overnight or all day then check the pH again. If there is a difference between the two readings let us know how much.

[bluelagoon]

With such a small group of young discus, you'll always have some aggression. Maybe to the extent of killing each other. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Seems it seldom works.

[slicksta]

I agree... These fish can suffer greatly from intimidation in certain scenarios.

[paige350z]

Hi Paige, I would suggest adding a cup and a half (24 tablespoons) of salt to your tank and see if that helps the fish. Not sure how that will work with plants however.
Pat

My apologies! The day the one discus died, I did a massive water change and have already been adding aquarium salt during my water changes - 1 tbs per 4 gallons. One species of plant looks to be getting "burned" (turning black) but not sure if that is from the added salt, or the higher temperature. Will post pics soon! If I need to add more salt, please let me know how much, and should I continue with the aquarium salt, or switch to table salt? Thanks!

[paige350z]

Discus1.jpgDiscus2.jpg

[paige350z]

Those pics are of how the discus *normally* look, and this was 2 days ago, 2 hours after a full WC. There is never very much change in the pigeon's colors, but the other two get VERY dark. They are still in hiding this morning after turning on their light, but when they get out and about, I'll try to sneak in and get some more pictures if they are significantly darker than this. They are most relaxed in the evening and hide/fight more during the day.

[paige350z]

You can see some of that white stuff growing on the wood. Not sure if this is something to be concerned about, but this is new since adding the new fish.

[paige350z]

And..... this is how they look today, after yesterday's water change. As soon as I approached the tank, they bolted and hid, so this is the only photo I could get. That smallest fish has always been the most social, happy to see me when I'm anywhere near the tank. Now he just runs and hides. There shouldn't be this much difference in a 12-hour period. And their extra-skittish behavior makes me really nervous. Any suggestions as to a treatment? There HAS to be something going on in this tank that I can't see, but the longer I do nothing, the more anxious I get, and I don't want the fish to suffer while I wait for this to progress to something worse. Discus3.jpg

[jeep]

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
No - treated from the tap in buckets with API Stress Coat+. Have been wanting to switch to Prime, but have been waiting to use up my API bottle first. My maintenance routine/products used has not changed during any of this time. I have only increased the frequency, due to apparent fish stress.

Dump the API and switch to Prime! I had similar issues using API... I would also age the water, especially doing that large of water changes.

Let us know if you see a change in a couple of days.

[paige350z]

Prime arrives tomorrow - couldn't find it in stock locally. Also picking up some API General Cure and treating the tank today. Wish me luck!

[LizStreithorst]

Have you checked for a pH change with aged water. I don't think you know the importance of a stable pH.