Discus with white cottony growth and white stringly feces - Please Help!!!

[Tanja]

My new fish are sick and I need some help as soon as possible. :'(

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
I got the fish 3 weeks ago. I saw some feces that were lacking in any color for the first few days. There was also some damage to the fins. I treated with Seachem paraguard for 5 days and the problem seemed to go away. A day later I saw a white cottony-like growth in between the eyes of one of the fish. White stringy-feces started a day later. I had fed them frozen brine shrimp the day prior. Fish are pooping A LOT of white and losing weight rapidly. There are also wounds on the scales of the fish. They are still eating well.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

White poop, fungus, rubbing against objects, wounds on the head and scales.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Seachem Paraguard for 5 days 5 ml / 10 gallons. API Melafix and API Pimafix simultaneously for 1 day 5 ml/10 gallons. API Fungus Cure, 1 dose (30 mg/10 gallons). No noticable results yet.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
90 gallons heavily planted tank. 6 discus fish 4-5 inches (3 weeks in the tank), and 10 amano shrimp (4+ months in the tank).

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
10% every 2-3 days.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
6 months. Planted tank substrate (Controsoil), ranges from 2-4 inches deep.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
No. pH in the tank is 6.8. Off the tap 7.4.


8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
Seachem Prime. 1 ml/ 5 gallons. I store it in buckets for 3-4 hrs before placing in the tank.


9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp ___83 F__

- ph ___6.8.__

- ammonia reading _0.___

- nitrite reading _0.___

- nitrate reading __10.__

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __X__

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
Only these 6 discus.

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
Frozen Brine Shrimp/Beef Heart once daily. Discus Hans flake foods 2-3 times daily.


12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
My tank is green from fungus cure. I couldn't get any clear pictures.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Tanja, is there any way you can put the fish in a hospital tank with clean water? The fish have been subjected to a bunch of meds and very little clean water. Using meds is a planted tank just does not seem to work very well and you seem to have a bunch of stuff happening with the fish.
Pat

[Tanja]

Hi Pat, thank you so much for your fast response. I only have a 5 gallon hospital tank... How big of a tank should I get to accommodate 6 discus? I also have 2 ppm ammonia in my tap water due to chloramines... So I would have to cycle the quarantine tank for water changes to be feasible since I don't have an RO unit and I really can't afford it. Do you think sterilizing the main tank by removing all of the plants/ substrate and doing a big water change would be helpful? I really just need my pets to survive through this ordeal. :'(

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Tanja, you will need to remove the fish prior to doing a plant and gravel removal. Is that possible? Do you have an aging barrow like a brute trash can which could act as a holding container for the fish. You can use a dechlorator like prime to detoxic the chloramines.
Pat

[Tanja]

Oh...I put some more controsoil into my tank a few days ago... With fish in the tank. That probably didn't help. I will likely just buy a quarantine tank to keep them in while I'm working on the main tank since a lot of them don't cost that much more than a trash can. How large should it be? Should I also treat the main tank w/ medications while the fish are not in it?

Thank you so much for all your advice!

Tanja

[jeep]

I agree with Pat. You gave some good info but we really need to see a photo of the fish. Where did you get them? LFS or reputable seller? I'm wondering if they came with something or if your shrimp are carriers.

The white feces is usually hex, treated with high heat and metro, but yours are also having external issues, bacterial or fungal, so I would keep the temp down. The white feces can also be worms, in which case a different med will be needed, but we have to get the external issues under control before we move on to that.

10% water changes every 2 or 3 days is insufficient when dealing with a pathogen. Large water changes will reduce the pathogen count and certain treatment may eliminate it depending on what it is. This is nearly impossible in a planted tank with substrate.

I would place them in a bare bottom tank ASAP. How big are they? 6 small discus can be QT'd in as small as a 20g or 30g tank. Check FB marketplace or craigslist for cheaper deals if money is an issue. I would change 75% water daily with aged and temp matched water. If aging is an issue then you can buy a large buute trash can for aging. Just add an air stone. You can use a submersible pump to pump the water or you can use 1 gallon water jugs like I did for the first year I was in the hobby. It's a PITA, but will work. If you are willing to remove the substrate and plants, this is a great option, but I would place the discus in a bucket while you do this or you risk stirring up all kinds of bad stuff. If you do the large water changes, you will be ok with an uncycled filter. The 2ppm ammonia is fine as long as you are using Prime. Sorry if I'm jumping around but you are updating as I am typing, lol...

I would also keep the temp where it is and add salt at 1 TBS per gallon for at least 3 - 5 days, replacing the salt removed during water change. Keep us regularly updated so we can make changes as needed.

Important is where did you get these discus???

[Tanja]

Thank you so much Brian for your input. I got them directly from Discus Hans USA in Maryland. They are his German Stendker discus. That's why I'm having a hard time believing the issue would be with the fish. How would you recommend I treat the external issues in case the API funcus cure doesn't work? Yes I will tear my tank down for these fish any day. Would sand be a feasible option going forward? Or will it always have to be bare bottom? I tried to add a picture but it wouldn't let me. Is there a size limit to the pictures?

I will proceed to buy a 20 gallon tank for treatment tomorrow. How would you recommend that I medicate the tank going forward? I already have metronidazole but I haven't used it yet.

Thank you so much for your help, it is so appreciated.

Tanja

[jeep]

If they are from Hans, I'm certain they did not arrive with an illness. I suspect your shrimp are carriers. Thank you for your willingness to clean the tank out. Many people hesitate or reject this move.

Yes, there is a size limit on photo's. When I take photo's with my phone, i email them to myself and the email automatically resizes. Then save it and you can post.

I'm not yet sure how to proceed. I would like to see what affect the salt has on them first.

Depending on how large they are, I would keep their tank bare bottom until they are 5+ inches. It's so much healthier on young ones and easier to deal with an issue like this.

The most important thing at this time is large water changes with aged water. Discus, especially young ones, are affected by ph swings. 10% per day won't have an affect on ph, 75% will.

[Tanja]

Thank you Brian. Would you advise I get the tank pH to match my tap water exactly? I will definitely remove the planted substrate then as it is lowering my pH. Should I add prime after I have aged the water for a while? Prime only detoxifies ammonia for 24 hrs and last time I aged water in buckets w/ Prime over night stressed them out. They came back to normal after I dosed the whole tank with Prime.

I was able to add some pictures now. The fungus can be seen in between the eyes, right above the mouth. It has grown today since I took these pictures. So I will get the quarantine tank tomorrow as soon as the stores open and update you with more pictures. Do you recommend epsom salt or what kind of salt?

Thank you for all your support. This is really breaking my heart to see them go through this. :'(

[jeep]

I add Prime as I am adding the water to my tank and I only squirt in enough to estimate what I'm putting in, although it's pretty hard to OD prime. And yes, you want to age your water as close as possible ph to the tank water. This shouldn't take too long, maybe 24 hours at the most if you do daily water changes. If you want to do more water changes, it's better as long as the water is aged. During the summer when the air is warmer, I don't even aerate and it's good to go.

Epsom is for constipation. You want regular salt with no additives. Table salt will work, but I buy Solar Salt from HD. 40lbs for about $5 and I just have it on hand at all times. I really don't use it that much, but for the cost it's worth it.

I really don't think this is fungal. I suspect you have a protozoa that s attacking the slime coat and the white stuff is either a reaction or bacteria being opportunistic. The salt alone may take care of this, but we will know about 2 or 3 days after you begin treatment...

Here's a good read if you have time. It shows the progression of a similar issue... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-fish-question

[Tanja]

Thank you Brian, would you advise that I get a sponge filter, an air stone or both to the quarantine tank? Also the water in their tank is much softer (2 kH, 5 GH) than my tap (8GH, 4 kH) due to the plants consuming a lot of minerals. Should I raise these up to tap water levels in the tank before I put the discus into straight tap water tank? I've been doing small frequent water changes to keep things consistent.

As for the main tank, I would agree that the shrimp might be carriers of something. I grew all of my plants from tissue cultures and every rock and driftwood I put into the tank was sterile in my attempt to avoid these very issues. So I will get rid of the shrimp. What about the rest of the tank? Besides for replacing the substrate, can I keep the stones, driftwood etc.? And I have a fluval fx4 full of biomedia... Will this have to be replaced as well? :'(

Thank you for the link. I assume Diamond Crystals salt pellets from Home Depot would work?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Tanja, I would suggest two large sponges (and heater) and an air pump with two outlets to drive the sponges. Since your situation is a bit different then mine you could do a 50% water change their current tank prior to moving the fish to the hospital tank. I suspect moving the fish to the hospital tank without do a water change on the main tank would be fine. You could setup the hospital tank with clean, warm water and allow the sponges to age the water a bit prior to moving the fish.

I will let Brian comment on the salt since the salt you mention is for a water softener. As for the contents of the main tank you might consider potting the plants and giving the rocks and wood a good rinse. Best to focus on the fish for now however.
Pat

[jeep]

Thank you for the link. I assume Diamond Crystals salt pellets from Home Depot would work?

As long as it doesn't contain any additives, any salt will be fine. I just use this because it's cheaper https://www.homedepot.com/p/Diamond-...2454/100172669

Around here, it's usually on pallets near the exit doors.

Brian

[Mando]

Thank you Brian, would you advise that I get a sponge filter, an air stone or both to the quarantine tank? Also the water in their tank is much softer (2 kH, 5 GH) than my tap (8GH, 4 kH) due to the plants consuming a lot of minerals. Should I raise these up to tap water levels in the tank before I put the discus into straight tap water tank? I've been doing small frequent water changes to keep things consistent.

As for the main tank, I would agree that the shrimp might be carriers of something. I grew all of my plants from tissue cultures and every rock and driftwood I put into the tank was sterile in my attempt to avoid these very issues. So I will get rid of the shrimp. What about the rest of the tank? Besides for replacing the substrate, can I keep the stones, driftwood etc.? And I have a fluval fx4 full of biomedia... Will this have to be replaced as well? :'(

Thank you for the link. I assume Diamond Crystals salt pellets from Home Depot would work?

if you're going to move them to a QT tank just so you're able to remove the substrate and plants from the main tank, then just a stone and some of the old tank water would suffice. It shouldn't take that long to remove substrate and 100% of the contaminated water from the other tank and add new water.

I do what Brian does. I add prime as I add my aged water. For adult discus, 50% water changes every two days works for me; more is better. I also age my water right outside my window in a 55g food grade drum. You could use a new trashcan from HD as it is cheaper than a drum.

[Tanja]

Pat, the guarantine tank is now ready with two sponge filters and a heater in it. I haven't moved the fish in there yet, they're still active and eating although one of them has developed a sunken belly. It seems one of them still has damage to the scales although the white stuff in the forehead is healing. How long can I wait for the quarantine tank to mature before moving the fish? Today I've dosed it with stability and prime. I wasn't going to move anything there from my current set-up since it is clearly infected.

Brian, I got the salt you recommended. Do you recommend a permanent quarantine w/the salt over a salt dip?

I'm so grateful your help and for this awesome community.

Here are some updated pictures of the fish.

Tanja