Discus fish CAN be successfully kept and bred in low tech planted tank

[Milaz]

This is going to be controversial post and I would like to Apologize and state upfront, that I am not suggesting at all that it may work for anyone else the same way as for me - so please do not crucify me.

From the very start - I have grown up with two 480 L / 127 gal. bare bottom discus tanks in my childhood bedroom, where my father tried in late seventies to breed discus - doing everything by the book - once per week 50% water changes, hormone stimulation, beef heart mix, live coretra feeding etc. but w/o any luck - I am just sharing this as illustration of having quite good idea of what it take and how difficult it really is to successfully breed this king of all aquarium fish - because of this knowledge I have always been afraid of it - well - till FEB this year when I gave it a try finally.

I have been always around this hobby - in and out - my latest tank being 10 years old 887 L or 234 gallons planted tank with rather thick fine gravel bottom substrate and three large pieces of bog wood set as Amazonas habitat (not biotope - see later) - community tank with predominantly tetras shoals - but since five years also housing also my 10 years old six piece pack of clown fish (Botia Macracanthus) - ending there when I closed down my second 260 L or 69 gallon aquarium set up as Asian tropical forest habitat.

Before deciding to try keep discus I have read a lot about it - all the great books by Heiko Bleher, all the sticky posts on this great forum - thank you guys for sharing so much of so valuable info and your practical experience here with us novices.

As I did not have any intention to breed - only trying to keep discus - I have prepared myself in my mind for possible failure - considering as greatest success to see if I would be able to keep healthy discus - in my community planted tank and not being able to perform daily - sometimes even weekly water changes - because of this limitation due to my frequent out of country week or longer business trips I have focused on best possible filtration to compensate for it.

I am running my aquarium with 387% over-sized bio-filter capacity consisting from 1x original Fluval FX5 - perfectly running all 10 years, plus added 1x Eheim Professional 2226 from the closed down smaller tank plus added ahead of discus introduction third filter - Fluval FX6 - mainly for redundancy reasons but also faster waste removal.

I am running Eheim with Eheim Pro substrate, but both FX5 and FX6 in DENITRIFICATION mode - using Biohome Ultimate media from Richard - aka Pond Guru - https://filterpro.co.uk - 5 kg in each FX filter - performing first classic nitrification waste degradation of ammonia to nitrite than to nitrate on the surface of media - but inside the Biohome anaerbic de-nitrification back to nitrogen gas - this is the only reason, why I can do it without so frequent and large water changes otherwise required with nitrification filter setup only - where accumulating nitrate end product must be diluted by water changes. Also my water is turning very fast through filters - total flow rate being 2*3.500 L/h for both Fx filters plus 1.100 L/h - for total of 8.100 L/h flow - in reality doe to head losses estimated at about 5.000 L/h real flow - thus removing any waste really fast.

So much about the setup - now how my discuss keeping is progressing:

1) FEB 26th 2019 - major clean up of my 10 year in operation tank - pulled out a lot of plants - all Valisnerias etc - left in only few Echinodorus plants - Veronikae and Tricolor species. Community consisted at that time from six clowns, 5 Hemmigrammus Erythrostigma (bleeding heart tetra), 15 Paracheirodon Inesi (neons), 15 Hemmigrammus Bleherae (rummy nose tetra), 5 Corydoras Aeneus and 5 ancistrus sp.

2) March 3rd 2019 - addition of FX6 - seeded with portion of the original FX5 media - both FX5 and FX6 set with Biohome Ultimate media in two trays out of three in each FX filter, temperature increased from 25 to 30 dC gradually over three days.

3) March 15th, 2019 evening - brought in 12 red turquoise discus 7 cm in size or about four months old from Josef Pejsa - one of best discus breeders around here - http://www.pejsadiscus.cz. All 12 started to feed well the very next day - Tetra Discus granules, coretra live food plus Golden lake frozen Artemia.

20190315_211751 one hour after introduction of discus.jpg20190315_192258 parent pair of my discus.jpg

4) first two months 30% weekly water changes gradually - based on both liquid drop water testing but also Seneye continuous water parameters monitoring - https://seneye.com/ - with spot on water parameters as the denitrification was starting to kick in, I was able to extend water changes to 40% once per three weeks - filtered via activated charcoal filter but no other treatment needed as my tap water has KH stable at 5 to 6 and almost neutral pH at 7.2.

5) AUG 22nd, 2019 evening - first pair of discus started to breed in right front corner of aquarium onto the glass - no photos as I returned home from week long business trip after 10 pm with lights switched off - and my wife and son watching the breeding did not took photos of it - I have seen some eggs on the front glass in night light, but by the morning all eaten up.

20190823_my_first_breeding_pair_eggs_eaten.jpg

6) SEP 5th, 2019 - during water change and gravel cleanup after three weeks on business trip I have noticed, that second pair has bred onto Echinodorus Veronikae leaves in the left corner - this time I was able to take pictures and it seems hatching of larvae may be already starting so breeding took part already two - three days earlier - brave mother discuss stayed with her eggs shielding them with her body from my bottom gravel vacuum cleaner even as I was cleaning it around the same plant on which they laid their eggs before I realized what miracle has just happened as she was protecting her eggs.

20190905_2nd_discus_pair_hatching_eggs.jpg

Bottom line - all 12 discus alive and doing well, though four remaining smaller in size and not feeding as aggressively as the rest, two breeding pairs formed with each setting up their territory 195 cm or 6'4" apart from each other in the opposite sides of my tank - and my father - now 84 - is enjoying tremendously the pictures and videos from my discuss keeping - very happy to live long enough to witness discuss breeding in our family.....

So all what I am trying to say here it is, that discus fish from good breeder are hardy enough fish to live well and even breed in my not so typical setup - planted tank with a lot of bog wood, thick fine gravel bottom substrate with massive bio-filtration capacity of well established beneficiary bacteria over ten years in operation, coupled with massive external filters and fast water circulation in de-nitrifying setup thus w/o any nitrate accumulation in the water, feeding three different Tetra dry food granules - Discus, Cichlid Pro and Tetramin BioActive - and occasional treat with live coretra and frozen Golden Lake Artemia - no beef heart at all.

Just food for thought I guess - I have to admit, that if I would knew it might work so well earlier in my setup with not so frequent water changes and still my discus will be healthy and breeding in it, I would have moved into discuss keeping much earlier and would not be so long afraid to start with it.

So if you have good setup and matured tank with large enough filtration capacity so do not be afraid to keep discus - true king of tropical tanks!

[LizStreithorst]

What an interesting story! I want to see your videos and more of your stills. I love it when someone breaks all the rules and succeeds.

[Sturiosoma]

I would say you are keeping this majestic fish as they should be and they are in turn rewarding you, Congratulations.

Jeanne

[Milaz]

What an interesting story! I want to see your videos and more of your stills. I love it when someone breaks all the rules and succeeds.

Thank you Liz for your kind appreciation.

For sure I do not consider myself any renegade trying to break all rules and see what happens - rather - if I may - while being far from considering myself skilled discus keeper - I am still novice and learning every day - allow me to take step back and share my humble opinion / leanings on why there are such rules I am not trying to break - but find alternative way to the same ultimate goal = best possible water quality:

1. Frequent and large water changes required to dilute waste build up - this is one way for sure working - alternative way - not replacing the water changes at all - but increasing intervals between them for those of us often out of home not able to keep up with the rigorous regime - it is to set up the filtration differently - not traditional nitrification (oxidation of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate which needs to be diluted by frequent water changes) - but to set it up with both nitrification AND de-nitrification - the denitrification requiring anaerobic conditions - hence specific filter media - like Biohome - or Momotaro (this one in large pieces only used in Koi keeping) - basically having waste internal cavities / porosity / internal channels - allowing denitrifying bacteria to settle in - and to take the oxygen needed for their survival not from water - as there is none left after nitrification bacteria finished their job - but these good bacteria take the oxygen from nitrates produced by nitrifying bacteria earlier - end product being inert Nitrogen gas escaping out of tank water eventually. So I am trying to say here it is not really breaking all the rules on large frequent water changes - but understanding at first place, why such rules are existing = pristine water quality - and finding alternative way to get as close as possible to the same end result.

2. Water chemistry stability - this - my humble opinion is the most important factor - as frequent fluctuations in water chemistry parameters result in higher stress levels imposed on the fish - higher stress levels = weakened immunity = higher vulnerability to pathogen attacks (bacterial and parasitical) - so my take on this is - if I have filtration removing the waste / avoiding waste build up, it is actually better for the fish well being to reduce any other stress factors to the minimum - stress from water parameters fluctuation - inevitable with frequent water changes - unless we would be playing with RO water and using pH / KH / GH conditioners to have exactly the same water chemistry parameters as the tank water we replace - hard to do for average tropical fish keeper - so in my book less frequent water changes = less frequent stress = stronger immunity. Another stress arises from us doing too many clean ups / decor re-arrangements etc. - so golden rule - keep your hands out of the tank as much as possible is really true.

3. Water circulation - or turnover rate via filters - setting it so, that all aquarium water passes through filters every 10 - 15 minutes = faster waste decomposition = better water quality - in my case 5000 L/h or 22 gallons per minute setup as all the flow going from left tank side to the right - simulating river current - but at the same time washing out the waste efficiently to filters for breakout there - thus not accumulating on the bottom substrate.

4. A lot of true bog wood in the tank - not the Asian or African hard wood sold in pet stores for decoration - but true bog wood - which provides important water conditioning - by leaching out tannins and humic acids it actually helps to stabilize pH near neutral or slightly acidic levels plus it creates healtier water - in fact it is part of many water conditioners sold by Tetra or others - and in fact it is similar - but much milder - than peat filtration. The only downside of this it is a bit yellowish tint it gives to tank water - but I do not care about it really.

5. Good and varied enough feeding - as I am out of home a lot, I needed to setup varied enough diet automatically distributed - freshened up with live or frozen foods when I am at home - so I run Eheim autofeeder - https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/accessor...ng_fish_feeder - on right end of the tank - dosing 4x per day staple food - Tetra Discus and on the other side having Eheim twin feeder - https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/accessor...sh_feeder_TWIN - in this one one compartment is dosing 4x per day TetraMin Bioactive granules and the second is dosing 4x per day either Tetra Cichlid Pro, Terta Energy Pro or Tetra Menu mixed all up - for the variety part of it - allowing all fish to feed at different places in the tank - not just one feeding place resulting in shy fish being pushed away by more aggressive fish. As protection to pathogens introduction via food I use - based on the breeders recommendation only corethra as the only live food used - plus frozen Gold lake artemia - but no beef heart - first it is not that easy to digest but more importantly it really degrades water quality quickly - so I am staying away from this.

6. Having great bottom cleaning crew in the tank - primarily done by the six pack of clowns - Botia Macracanthus - but also by 5 ancistrus sp. and 5 corys - all cleaning the bottom vigorously for any left over food discus would not eat - either from mid water or bottom itself.

7. Last but not least - balanced bio-load of the tank - e.g. not overstocking the tank is paramount - both due to the waste generated - less fish = less waste - but also for the well-being and lower stress levels - lower stress levels = healthier fish.


So not trying to break all the rules - but rather trying to find a setup delivering similar end results within my limitations (out of town very often) while having healthy and happy fish - the latter assumed from two pairs already breeding - no other measure of their happiness

Just food for thought - for sure far from suggesting anyone needs to follow the above - as all tanks are different, all tanks biochemistry is different and any source water used for water changes is different too - however for all of us the ultimate goal must be best water quality

[cooper666]

OMG those fish are stunning!

[brewmaster15]

Hi Milaz,
Thank you for sharing your experience here and your thoughts on discus keeping. I'm very happy to see you have successfully grown them out and gotten to the point where they are laying eggs..Thats a huge milestone for many hobbyists. I hope you will continue to update us as you get to the point where the fry are attaching to the parents and you can grow some out. Thats where alot of hobbyists really stumble with planted tanks. You have a good well thought out tank and philosophy that meets your needs and obviously your fish are happy too. , I am sure you will find a method that works for you to have a pair raise fry in that tank. I will be watching the journey. If theres one thing I know from my years with flat fish, its thats there alot of ways to succeed...Find what works for you and use it.



You mentioned Coretra Live food. Thats not something we have here in the USA...Best I can tell from looking it up is they are a type of mosquito that the adults don't bite? Do you collect them or are they sold at Local Fish stores?

Al

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Milaz, a very interesting read with lots of thought but into this. I am guessing you are replacing enough water to maintain some sort of mineral content in the water? Also are you hoping to raise fry in the tank at some point? Your discus look great BTW.
Pat

[Milaz]

Thank you guys for your kind appreciation of my thoughts shared herewith.

Answers - yes Al - corethra - https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Corethra - you probably know this as glass worms - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassworm - my breeder, from whom I got my fish, has given me his direct contact where he is sourcing it from importer - I am also sourcing from him his direct imports of frozen Golden Lake Artemia - the only issue I face it is, that he has it in wholesale packages - normal size for breeders and pet stores - but large one for my 12 discus shoal - however there is a very easy way to keep live corethra alive for one or even two weeks - twice a day flushing with fresh water and keeping it in large shallow box in the fridge with just enough water in it not to dry out. So rather than buying it expensive small portion at a time from local pet store, I get wholesale package - fresh import arriving every Wednesday - from the importer prior he is dispatching it to pet stores- even if possible to keep up to two weeks alive, I freeze half right away for later - using ice cube maker tray - just my wife kicked me out from her kitchen fridge with it - so I need to use the small one in my home brewery in the basement ) - and rest is the feasting time for whole tank population for a week - fun to watch both discus and clowns feeding frenzy when they get it.

As for any aspiration to breed and grow my own discuss unfortunately I am realistic - I do not have the time and setup to do it properly - no separate breeding tanks etc - so I enjoy it as a sign of healthy environment but do not think there would be any survival chances - in fact - as I have unintentionally disturbed my second breeding pair - realizing only they are protecting their eggs - possibly few starting to hatch already, when I had to clean my tank yesterday, they have eaten it all up as in the morning nothing has been left - my breeder confirmed to me, that this is quite typical for first breeding - so now on I will first thoroughly check all the tank surfaces prior starting the water change and maintenance - not to do the same mistake anymore. So for now my only aspiration is to keep them healthy and happy - in the community tank - anything extra like growing up my own would be a miracle

[Milaz]

Hi Milaz, a very interesting read with lots of thought but into this. I am guessing you are replacing enough water to maintain some sort of mineral content in the water? Also are you hoping to raise fry in the tank at some point? Your discus look great BTW.
Pat

Thank you Pat - yes indeed - replenishment of minerals is very important - this is why - despite not having high nitrates I still do the 40% water exchange every three weeks - to bring in fresh minerals.

[Milaz]

OMG those fish are stunning!

Just not to get credit I do not deserve - the second picture from the top in my original post is photo of parents of my fish I took at the breeder visit when I was picking up their babies - my 12 discus - you find out which one it is by moving mouse over it - it is written in the photo name. Rest of photos are than mine

[Milaz]

What an interesting story! I want to see your videos and more of your stills. I love it when someone breaks all the rules and succeeds.

Here you go Liz - couple photos - not any extra quality - taken by my cell phone last night:

Here is the whole tank - set as Amazonas habitat - could be biotope - but as I really like my clowns moved there when closing down Asian stream biotope aquaria it is now only habitat - not densely planted manicured water garden, but - hopefully - close resemblance of their native envirnment - sparse vegetation of Echinodrus species and a lot of under water wood...
20190906_full_tank_1.jpg
My tank is 195cm or 6'4" long - just for sizing reference

When I have brought in 12 baby discus in March, I was hoping to grow up 6 to 8 to adult size - surprised, that all 12 are still alive and well - though as shown on photos, 8 have grown up really nicely, but four did not grown much - but all eat - nobody hiding out - must be genetics I guess.
20190906_all 12 feeding with clowns_edited_resized.jpg

Now the first breeding pair - in the right corner where they claim their territory:
20190906_first breeding pair_resized.jpg

Not bad picture of one of the nicely grown ups:
20190906_the one above Echinodorus_resized.jpg

So much about my low tech low maintenance discuss community planted tank

It is all about

[Milaz]

Well - sounds hard to believe, but this evening third breeding pair formed and became much more aggressive - chosen back right corner - too bad I will not be able to see anything as they chosen back side of the root - cleaned it all evening till lights went off at 10 pm. Here they are - clearly distinguished from the other two pairs as both have much more coarse markings than the other two pairs:
20190907_third breeding pair_revised.jpg

So - so far it seems, that from 12 baby discus fish 4 months old eight have grown up nicely - formed three breeding pairs - two have already bred - third one just starting - body shaking next to each other, cleaning together chosen place and becoming very aggressive - just would not be able to take photo of their eggs . Four remaining from 12 have not grown much and probably will need to move them out to open up more space for the three breeding pairs.

This is how they looked first evening after introduction to my tank:
20190315_211751 one hour after introduction of discus.jpg

and how most of them look today - 5 months later:
20190906_one discus close up rev.jpg

Wish me luck this time - hopefully third pair will progress the most...