How to stock discus without causing a mini cycle or aggression

[ygdiscus]

Thank you for taking the time to read my first post.
I don't plan to post about every question I have, but I think this is a very basic question that applies to almost anyone setting up a new discus tank and I had a hard time finding any information about this online (maybe I just didn’t look in the right places, but i tried).

I have some experience with some freshwater and saltwater tanks, but this will be my first time with discus (I've done my research). I have a 55 gallon tank with 2 HOB emperor biowheel filters, 400gph and 350gph. My current plan is to get about 20 tetras, 3 corys, and 5 discus (probably 2 inch). I am currently cycling my tank with Dr. Tim's One and Only and ammonia drops.

My question is about the best way to stock the tank once it is fully cycled without causing aggression or an ammonia spike. I know discus have a large bio-load, and in general it's not recommended to increase the bio-load too much at a time because the biological filter won't be able to keep up and it will likely cause at least a partial cycle. But on the other hand, for various reasons (cross-contamination, aggression, pecking order etc.) it seems like most people advise adding all discus at one time. So what's the solution?

It appears to me that there are 2 possibilities.

1. Add the tetras, then the corys, and then all 5 discus once it's very stable. It will probably set off a mini cycle so lots of WCs will probably be necessary until it gets back to normal. Hopefully the fish will survive this stage without too much stress.

2. Instead of considering the tank fully cycled as soon as 2ppm ammonia turns into 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites in 24 hours (like Dr. Tim’s reccommends for a regular tank), I was thinking I could keep building up the biological filter slowly with ammonia drops. I could start doing 3ppm and wait until it can take care of that in 24 hours, and then maybe keep going until it can take care of that in 6-8 hours. (A lot of those numbers are guesses/estimates; if anyone thinks this is a good option I would love to know if anyone has more specific ideas how to do it.) Logically, this option seems to make sense. But I only saw one person suggest this on a forum somewhere so I was wondering if other people think this is a good idea, as well as if it's practical and necessary.

What do the more experienced people think is the best way to stock a discus tank?

Thanks in advance for the replies! And thanks for creating such an informative and helpful forum.

[BrendanJ23]

Mmm sounds like you might be over complicating. I would keep it simple and follow the advice here. Cycle the tank, just put your discus in (I’d opt for more than 5, especially being so small) and just do discus for a while. Learn their behaviours, get used to them etc. By not quarantining you run the risk of making your discus sick, and being so young will be more prone to sickness than adults.

[jeep]

Welcome to Simply Discus and feel free to ask any question you may have!!

I agree with Brendan on the QT issue. QT is the most important thing you can do to keep all your fish safe and healthy, and will require more than one tank.

Is this going to be a planted tank? A 55g is a bit on the crowded side with the stocking level you're describing.

Since you are new to discus, I suggest you watch this video then hit us up with any questions you may have... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...TCH-THIS-VIDEO!

[ygdiscus]

Thanks for the replies!
As of now I am planning to start with no plants. I am planning to start with BB if I can make it look nice enough, but I might add sand or gravel at some point.
I live in the Miami area so I am planning to buy from Jack Wattley Discus. I went in there and spoke to Gabe about various things. I was thinking to keep it to 5 because I don't know if I will be able to upgrade. Gabe's opinion is that tetras have such a small bio-load compared to discus so I can get 20 no problem. I know there are different opinions on the stocking level but I figured if necessary I can always change a bit more water or give away some of the other fish. Also I plan to feed twice a day.
I had been assuming that the water in the store is all mixed together and the discus are already on the same water as the tetras, but I guess I don't know that for a fact. I will have to find out. You guys think it's necessary to QT even if I buy everything from the same store at the same time?

[ygdiscus]

I was hoping the answer would be that I am over complicating, but can you please explain in what way? You think once the tank is cycled there won't be an ammonia spike if I add 5 discus at once?

[dspeers]

YG, I am in the same position you are and I have been trying to decide what the best course of action is as regards to stocking all at once, risking overwhelming the bio-filter, or incrementally which then requires adding a quarantine period or risking cross contamination. I had pretty much decided to do a little of both, buying plants and dither fish and other companions (cardinals, rams, plecos, corys, dwarf gouramis) initially after cycling the tank with 150-200% recommended ammonia, then if all was good after a couple of weeks adding the discus (no smaller than 5"). Even in that situation I worry that the bio-filter will die back to some degree living off a limited bio-load so after intro of discus will be checking ammonia daily or more frequently depending with reflex 50% water changes till back to 0. Will be starting a 120, with 40 gal sump so may do 50% discus stock then another 50% a couple of weeks later for total 10-12 discus. Luckily I live within 90 min of a very good supplier who offers almost all of the fish I want, still not wild about being on the road 3-4 hours for too many days.

From everything I have read the start up decision in re discus size is binary, either a grow out (preferably bare bottom) discus only tank, & large daily water changes, or if the goal is a community tank featuring discus, adults or at least sub-adults (I read that as at least 5") +/- plants with water change frequency and volume primarily dictated by bioload, measured by nitrates. I agree that if you want to start with juvenile discus, a grow out tank has the highest chance of success. Lots of work, I'm not sure given my disabilities I am up for it, but the payoff is worth it if you have the time/capability.

I am curious as to how most of the folks deal with starting up a new tank. Haven't found a great deal of commentary specifically addressing how to safely get an initially cycled tank up to handling full bio-load.

[jeep]

Since you're getting them all from Gabe, QT may not be an issue. Talk to him about this as I'm overly cautious to the level of being paranoid even though I've never had a CC issue. I've seen others who have and it can get real ugly! Ideally, adding the tetras and cory's first and letting them complete the bio cycle would be best, but personally I wouldn't avoid QT even buying from the same source if they were purchased at different times. Gabe brings in new stock all the time and water conditions can change overnight. Even though you're to the max on population, you can probably be fine as long as you monitor ammonia and do your water changes regularly. I would recommend daily water changes until you're 100% confident in your cycle.

Over-complication during the planning stage is never a bad thing because helps develop a logical routine and helps prepare for possible issues in the future.

[Tshethar]

As part of your planning process I'd recommend giving some thought to a tank (or even a plastic container) you can use either for quarantine or as a hospital tank. Also, think about how you could age water.

I say this because if you add tetras and cories first and then the discus, if the latter show signs of illness you'll want to be able to pull them out and treat them separately. Alternatively, if you settle in and/or grow out some smaller discus first, you'll want to QT the other fish (even if from Gabe) if you add them a month or two later.

And a lot of us have found that even with soft, low TDS tap water that seems tailor-made for discus, young ones in particular often react negatively to straight tap water, whether due to pH swings, dissolved gasses, sediment or other things. So, do some thinking about how you might make water changing as easy as possible. I would think that as long as you have a cycled tank to start with, keeping up with the water changes will help the system cope with additions to the bioload. (I don't think dosing extra ammonia would hurt anything, either, before you add fish.) You can also feed lightly for the first few days.

[jeep]

And a lot of us have found that even with soft, low TDS tap water that seems tailor-made for discus, young ones in particular often react negatively to straight tap water, whether due to pH swings, dissolved gasses, sediment or other things. So, do some thinking about how you might make water changing as easy as possible.

My fry are in full tap before they leave the cone

[Tshethar]

My fry are in full tap before they leave the cone

I'm jealous! I don't know if it's my 1970s pipes, the town reservoir, or the water treatment plant, but even my adults get prefiltered water, usually with some mix of aged and tap. (They're a little spoiled. )

[AquaticNerd]

You've received a lot of good advice here regarding what order to put your fish in, QT, etc, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned - you're only dosing to get to 2ppm of ammonia? In my opinion, that seems pretty low. When I was doing a fishless cycle, my target was 8ppm of ammonia in the tank, and I've commonly heard 4ppm as a target as well. I used Fritz Pro Ammonium Chloride, similar to the Dr. Tim's drops, and dosed until I got a test reading of 8ppm. After that, I waited until I started to see the ammonia drop and then continued dosing back up to 8ppm every 24 hours.

It took about 8-10 days for me to see a drop from 8ppm to 0ppm in 24 hours, and then another 7-10 days (can't really remember exactly) for me to see nitrites hit 0ppm. After that, I knew my tank was cycled well and continued feeding 8ppm/24 hours up until I received my discus. I did daily 90% water changes the last 4 days before the fish arrived to remove any traces of nitrate. Luckily, I think I may have avoided any mini-cycle. With the 4 adults I just added, I've consistently tested 0ppm ammonia and nitrite the past two days. I'm going to keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite, but considering the high amount of ammonia I was dosing I'm not expecting to see anything. Just my two cents.

[ygdiscus]

You've received a lot of good advice here regarding what order to put your fish in, QT, etc, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned - you're only dosing to get to 2ppm of ammonia? In my opinion, that seems pretty low. When I was doing a fishless cycle, my target was 8ppm of ammonia in the tank, and I've commonly heard 4ppm as a target as well. I used Fritz Pro Ammonium Chloride, similar to the Dr. Tim's drops, and dosed until I got a test reading of 8ppm. After that, I waited until I started to see the ammonia drop and then continued dosing back up to 8ppm every 24 hours.

It took about 8-10 days for me to see a drop from 8ppm to 0ppm in 24 hours, and then another 7-10 days (can't really remember exactly) for me to see nitrites hit 0ppm. After that, I knew my tank was cycled well and continued feeding 8ppm/24 hours up until I received my discus. I did daily 90% water changes the last 4 days before the fish arrived to remove any traces of nitrate. Luckily, I think I may have avoided any mini-cycle. With the 4 adults I just added, I've consistently tested 0ppm ammonia and nitrite the past two days. I'm going to keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite, but considering the high amount of ammonia I was dosing I'm not expecting to see anything. Just my two cents.

I am dosing 2ppm because that's what Dr. Tim's reccomends: dosing 2ppm and only dosing again when ammonia is 0 and nitrites are <1ppm. They say strongly not to make yourself crazy keeping ammonia at that level, but rather dosing that amount and only dosing again once the levels go down. And I have to check again who it was, but either them or Tetra or both say that levels above 4ppm can harm the BB.
But then again, these instructions aren't specifically designed to build up a large biofilter quickly. And I know that lots of people (like you) don't believe in doing it this way. So I guess I'm not sure what's best. Maybe I'll do somewhere in between.

[ygdiscus]

As part of your planning process I'd recommend giving some thought to a tank (or even a plastic container) you can use either for quarantine or as a hospital tank. Also, think about how you could age water.

I say this because if you add tetras and cories first and then the discus, if the latter show signs of illness you'll want to be able to pull them out and treat them separately. Alternatively, if you settle in and/or grow out some smaller discus first, you'll want to QT the other fish (even if from Gabe) if you add them a month or two later.

And a lot of us have found that even with soft, low TDS tap water that seems tailor-made for discus, young ones in particular often react negatively to straight tap water, whether due to pH swings, dissolved gasses, sediment or other things. So, do some thinking about how you might make water changing as easy as possible. I would think that as long as you have a cycled tank to start with, keeping up with the water changes will help the system cope with additions to the bioload. (I don't think dosing extra ammonia would hurt anything, either, before you add fish.) You can also feed lightly for the first few days.

I definitely have thought about making water changes easier. Some of the things I need are still on the way, but my plan is a 19 gallon garbage can under my tank sticking out the back (biggest I could find with the perfect dimensions. I am running a waterline to the garbage can with an auto float valve to keep it full. I have a python water changer to take out water, and then I am getting a pump to refill the tank from the garbage can. If I need to do a large WC I can always mix some conditioned tapwater, or I can get a second garbage can if I see that I need it.

[AquaticNerd]

Yep - I've already read mixed reviews and thoughts with how much ammonia is safe for BB. I've always done higher than what most folks recommend - but that's usually because I'm adding a larger than normal bio-load to start. As with any hobby, each of us have our own level of comfort and what has worked for us. Since I've always seemed to have success dosing large amounts of ammonia, that's what I go with.

[Tshethar]

I definitely have thought about making water changes easier. Some of the things I need are still on the way, but my plan is a 19 gallon garbage can under my tank sticking out the back (biggest I could find with the perfect dimensions. I am running a waterline to the garbage can with an auto float valve to keep it full. I have a python water changer to take out water, and then I am getting a pump to refill the tank from the garbage can. If I need to do a large WC I can always mix some conditioned tapwater, or I can get a second garbage can if I see that I need it.

Sounds like a good plan in general. I don't have a pH swing so I will often do something similar, insofar as I will have either enough aged water for about a 50-70% water change on my growout tank, or I mix in some prefiltered tap if I do more. I don't know if you read about or tested yet for pH swing, but if you do a quick search you might see that is often a variable that will determine how much water you will need or want to age.

And I know that the hospital or QT tank is usually a logistical pain when there is already lots to figure out, but keep thinking about where you could get away with that for a short period. I've kept mine in bathrooms and closets, believe it or not, and would use my laundry room if there was any space at all in there (and my spouse would let me)! Dollar a gallon sale going on now...