Attachment Rate/Timing & Strategies in 40 Breeder

[Tshethar]

Hi all,

And thanks for all the information that is already here in this subforum. I'm happy to have a reason to be posting over here as I am working with my first spawn and it's going okay--fun to enjoy this aspect of the hobby!

What I'm curious about is a normal time for free swimmers to figure out how to attach, and ideas for possibly limiting space in the 40 Breeder I'm using for the process, especially if I end up doing it again. (So far I think I have enough that have attached for the parents to raise them (about 30 or so), but I seem to have lost a decent percentage of the spawn to wandering and starving, as well as some others to a small gap between an external filter intake and the Aquaclear sponge that was covering it.

Basically, the fry wandered for a good 1-2 days after hatching and while it was looking like some intermittently hung around the parents, they were also straying all over even after they had seemingly found them. I probably also had too much current depleting their energy during this time. (Mid-size Aquaclear I put in "low mode" plus a pretty strong airstone on the far side of the tank.) I'm not sure but was guessing maybe the parents (F2 Alenquers) hadn't really started producing much slime. Also, the female wasn't really darkening all that much compared to the male--though he too couldn't seem to keep them on his back consistently.

When I realized there were some issues, I turned off the external filter, and put the media over the airstone, which I eased back, and I dropped the water level to just below half the tank. Have been changing 50% of the water daily with aged and prefiltered water, which usually runs a TDS around 50. Things seem to have stabilized since, though yesterday I had been trying to think of a way to divide the tank and reduce the area and couldn't come up with a good idea I could quickly implement. I have a black mattenfilter for this tank, but since the fry were definitely going for anything dark (including small patches of algae on the silicone), I held off on using that as it seemed likely to do more harm than good. Was trying to think of a way to camouflage it but don't have enough white filter floss for the job, or a sheet of styro laying around to try putting in front of it.

Anyway, I can see why the smaller tank footprint is preferred, but I'm curious if folks out there would have any tips on making this setup work any better. The good news is that I do see growth from the ones that made it and the parents are doing a nice job with them at this point.

[Sturiosoma]

As far as a tank divider you can get foam in different colors from Swiss tropicals or you could go to your local fabric store and get a piece of white upholstery foam or you could get a tank divider from Angels Plus or you could get a 20gal tank for future breeding, just some thoughts

Jeanne

[Willie]

Lots of good observations here. Here's how I handle getting frys to attach.

1. Taller tanks with smaller footprint work better. I use 37 cubes which are 18" X 18", mainly because I can drop the level and reduce the water volume more effectively than in a 40 breeder. I drop the level to the point that the parents' dorsal fins break the water surface. Leaving the lights on help fry to find the dark object (the adult fish) to attach.
2. Use a side attached air driven sponge for filtration. It's simple to shut off and take out if the fry get distracted. (The parents twitch to attract fry, which doesn't work if the sponge filter is going.) For obvious reasons, there are no white sponge filters available. In general, a sponge that you can easily remove and reinstall works better for breeder tanks. You only need about 24 - 36 hours from when they go free swimming to when they attach.
3. I do huge water changes and wipe down the tank when the spawns are laid, so that the water is as clean as can be. The water may cloud when you stop the filtration, but that's a short term issue that does not seem to harm the fish.

Good luck, Willie!

[Second Hand Pat]

Nice to see you get to this stage Bill. I remember my first spawn like it was yesterday. Have fun with this and hope it goes well.
Pat

[Tshethar]

As far as a tank divider you can get foam in different colors from Swiss tropicals or you could go to your local fabric store and get a piece of white upholstery foam or you could get a tank divider from Angels Plus or you could get a 20gal tank for future breeding, just some thoughts

Jeanne

Thanks, Jeanne. I did see on an older thread in this section (on breeding Albinos) in which some have used some foam from the local fabric store, though they had to call the manufacturer first to make sure there were no flame retardants or chemicals in it that could kill fish. I would consider that but would be a little leery unless someone had already tested a specific brand first, as I know some folks have tried DIY Mattenfilters and ended up with fish losses...

I am curious as to whether the light blue or light green-colored foam from Swiss Tropicals would still attract fry, or whether it would be light enough not to... I'm thinking they might go for it but maybe not.

I see that Angel's Plus does have tank dividers--good to know, though they don't have them large enough for the 40B.

Unfortunately, alternatively sized breeding tanks are going to have to wait for another house! My wife is just on the brink of stepping into a new career, so there might be a chance for that.... and the funny/sad part is that having space for fish wherever we might go is a primary concern of her husband's!

[Tshethar]

Lots of good observations here. Here's how I handle getting frys to attach.

1. Taller tanks with smaller footprint work better. I use 37 cubes which are 18" X 18", mainly because I can drop the level and reduce the water volume more effectively than in a 40 breeder. I drop the level to the point that the parents' dorsal fins break the water surface. Leaving the lights on help fry to find the dark object (the adult fish) to attach.
2. Use a side attached air driven sponge for filtration. It's simple to shut off and take out if the fry get distracted. (The parents twitch to attract fry, which doesn't work if the sponge filter is going.) For obvious reasons, there are no white sponge filters available. In general, a sponge that you can easily remove and reinstall works better for breeder tanks. You only need about 24 - 36 hours from when they go free swimming to when they attach.
3. I do huge water changes and wipe down the tank when the spawns are laid, so that the water is as clean as can be. The water may cloud when you stop the filtration, but that's a short term issue that does not seem to harm the fish.

Good luck, Willie!

Thanks a lot, Willie! Really appreciate your insights. I remember seeing you mention elsewhere that the first 24 hours were really important, which is one reason I was a little concerned/perplexed that the fry didn't seem to attach even after finding the parents. It seems like the survivors accomplished the task but it seems like it took more like 48 or so. It may be that the strong current was part of my problem?

I forgot to mention that I did keep a room light on for them overnight near the tank, thinking that might help. Might just go with the tank lights next time if it would be better.

What would you recommend on feeding the parents during this phase? Since I'm not really filtering, there is some cloudiness, but it has seemed okay for them. I've been giving them half a cube of FDBW a day and doing one WC as mentioned above. They do eat, sometimes slowly, but they are finishing it.

Also, at what point would you raise the water level and go back to normal filtration, current, etc.?

Lastly, would you (or others) recommend installing the mattenfilter to reduce the footprint if or when attachment is secure, but before the BBS stage? Want the fry to find food once we get to that point...

Thanks again,
Bill

[Tshethar]

Nice to see you get to this stage Bill. I remember my first spawn like it was yesterday. Have fun with this and hope it goes well.
Pat

Many thanks, Pat! You, Al, and many others here have been great supporters and instigators, and I couldn't resist the temptation to move my pair from the community tank and give this part a try. It really is cool to watch and I'm having a lot of fun.

[Willie]

You didn't mention what type of discus are involved. Pigeon blood types, particularly, newer strains that have absolutely no peppering have more difficulty with fry attachment. Albinos are extremely difficult. In each case, the fry are looking for a dark form and have problem finding parents that do not darken. (I once read a real interesting post where someone color fed their albino discus to darken them for fry attachment.)

1. Removing dark objects from the tank will help the fry. So I recommend removing the dark sponge filter and use a tank painted a bright/light color.
2. Parents twitch to attract "lost" fry, so running a filter will really make it difficult for fry to find the parents.
3. I feed parents exactly the same thing that I feed when they're not spawning. I feed frozen beefheart, but you should feed whatever they already recognize.
4. I wait 24 - 48 hours from free swimming to slowly refill the tank and return the filter. If the fry haven't attached by then, they've usually starved to death.
5. Matten filters work well, but they are dark. That's why I just use standard sponges. Matten filters only work if you don't clean them, so I don't use them for discus.
6. Finally, you can feed bbs as early as 4 days free swimming. I recommend weaning to solid food as early as possible, which can be 12 days free swimming. The difference between bbs and solid food is dramatic.

Have fun, Willie

[Tshethar]

You didn't mention what type of discus are involved. Pigeon blood types, particularly, newer strains that have absolutely no peppering have more difficulty with fry attachment. Albinos are extremely difficult. In each case, the fry are looking for a dark form and have problem finding parents that do not darken. (I once read a real interesting post where someone color fed their albino discus to darken them for fry attachment.)

I was doing some reading in the "breeding Albino" thread and I can see how they have challenged folks. Fortunately, the parents are F1 Alenquer fish, so none of those issues here. But they are inexperienced, FWIW. Mom was more interested in catching them and spitting them back on the cone than in darkening and attracting them during that first 24 hours.

1. Removing dark objects from the tank will help the fry. So I recommend removing the dark sponge filter and use a tank painted a bright/light color.

I can really see this. The tank bottom and back are painted white, and I got rid of the dark sponge and had made a hole in an aquaclear sponge for use as a prefilter when running the HOB. But even dark algae in a couple of places really seemed to distract the fry. Point taken.

2. Parents twitch to attract "lost" fry, so running a filter will really make it difficult for fry to find the parents.

Thanks, makes sense.

3. I feed parents exactly the same thing that I feed when they're not spawning. I feed frozen beefheart, but you should feed whatever they already recognize.

Good to know. I didn't want the parents to get so hungry they'd consider turning on the fry, but I also didn't want to pollute the tank any more than necessary to preserve good water conditions. I've been going on the light side, but just this morning Mom seemed to be begging at the front, so I fed her and she ate with gusto.

4. I wait 24 - 48 hours from free swimming to slowly refill the tank and return the filter. If the fry haven't attached by then, they've usually starved to death.

Okay, it looks like I'm not in that range with fry attached, so I'm thinking I'll transition later tonight when I do the WC.

5. Matten filters work well, but they are dark. That's why I just use standard sponges. Matten filters only work if you don't clean them, so I don't use them for discus.

Yes, I can see why this is the general consensus on SD. I liked the HMF when using one of my 40s as a pleco tank, but I don't like allowing stuff to build up in it for discus. My real thought here is that I'm wondering if I'll be able to get the BBS to the fry in a concentrated enough space for them to find it and eat well. When we did the growout challenge we started in 10 gallon tanks, and most people waited a while before giving the group the full footprint of a 40... Right now I'm thinking of it as a divider more than a filter, though maybe I could also use a syringe and try to target feed the fry if I leave it out.

6. Finally, you can feed bbs as early as 4 days free swimming. I recommend weaning to solid food as early as possible, which can be 12 days free swimming. The difference between bbs and solid food is dramatic.

Thanks, good to know! Will plan accordingly.

Have fun, Willie

You bet, and thanks again!

--Bill

[Tshethar]

Continuing to watch and work with these guys... Last night I experimented with the setup by filling the tank all the way up after a WC and restarting the Aquaclear. If I remember my timing, the fish spawned on a Saturday after a WC, which means they went free swimming last Saturday, give or take. So they've now had about 4-5 days free swimming.

However, some are still small and when I turned on the filter they ended up at the water surface after a while, swimming hard against the current. They didn't seem to be in distress, but I didn't want them expending all their energy and then not making their way back to the parents. So, off it went, with media back in the tank over the airstone. Waited some more time, but found a number of fry still up at the surface, as if they wanted to reach the (dark) top frame.

So, dropped the water level to about 60-70%, left them alone, and everyone seemed to find their way back. My impulse is to leave it like this for a few more days and see if they'll get some size going. And then figure out the BBS. Might also put a spare sponge filter in the tank instead of the HOB, if the latter is going to create issues at feeding time. (Or maybe go with Pat's filter floss "weir".)

P.S. Happy Thanksgiving!

[Sturiosoma]

I would be careful in restarting your filter after it's been off a while you can get an amonia build up so I would monitor my parameters

Jeanne

[Tshethar]

I would be careful in restarting your filter after it's been off a while you can get an amonia build up so I would monitor my parameters

Jeanne

All the contents of the filter are in the tank over the airstone, so no real worries there. Would definitely be careful it I were dealing with a closed canister or the like that could go anaerobic.

There are still a couple of smaller fry that I see wandering from time to time with things as they are now, with the rest of them (maybe 40?) growing and getting stronger. I think I'm going to try to use some foam floss to diffuse the current and try the Aquaclear again tomorrow, and I'll start hatching some BBS. By the weekend I can let them tell me whether they can find it with the footprint we have or whether they'll do better with a foam divider.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Bill, definitely try the weir idea. Also can you move the Aquaclear along the back of the tank. If so perhaps move it as far away from the parents/fry as possible. Also place a large foam prefilter of the inlet so the fry do not get sucked in the filter. Crossing fingers for you Bill.
Pat

[Sturiosoma]

One more thought on a tank divider, if you can get a close inside measurement of the width of your tank and shorter than the depth you can go to your local home store and have them cut you a piece of glass and you can cover the edges with a split piece of airline tubing

Jeanne

[coralbandit]

Great thread and thanks for all the great info all !