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Thread: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

  1. #241
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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    Quote Originally Posted by Shan_Evolved View Post
    Well, he died overnight and I found another laying on his side breathing really slowly. At this rate I'm not sure any of them will survive long enough to even get to the levamisole treatment. I will still wait and see with small water changes every day. Friendly reminder that they stopped eating last Thursday. I had my first death within 4 days. Does capilaria usually kill this fast?

    In case they all do die within this week, going forward I have 2 options - 1) fully clean and bleach mix my tank and start over fresh. 2) Or try another small batch of angels but treat them with levamisole right away.
    Shan, I am sorry you have lost the one and may lose another. How fast roundworms kill is fully dependent on how heavy a load the fish is carrying and how old the fish is. Young fish need alot of nutrient for growth.
    By the time you see symptoms of roundworm, you can be sure they have been there for a while.

    Along with the worms there could be secondary infections, as was discussed before. Lowered immune response can allow for protozoa, and bacteria to get an opening to attack as well.

    If you should lose your entire batch of angels and have to start over. I would wash the tank with dawn dish soap several times and rinse thoroughly. Use new sponges and biomaterial. Everything that can be rinsed easily use dawn dish soap while cleaning. But make sure you get all the soap off. Once its clean, dip it in bleach water.

    Tammy

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    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    No, fish, even Discus should live a long time with worms before it dies. I don't know if we will ever figure it out. But the best advice so far is Tammy's. You might want to cull the remaining fish and start from scratch and follow Al's QT advice as well as using the scope.
    Mama Bear

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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    Thanks my fish moms. Much love.

    I will wait and see how the remaining 5 angels and my glolight tetras do, but I will definitely start over fresh and clean thoroughly before hand. I will eliminate my sponges and start my cycle over brand new with a fishless cycle.

    After that I will get juvenile angels and follow the QT procedure for discus and work from there.

    P.S. Should I discard of the dead angels and not investigate anything on them? I'm not surgeon but I am willing to try and put anything under a microscope if it helps you guys help me. Or would it not make a difference since they are already dead
    Amateur discuskeeper, Professional doofus

  4. #244
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    I think that once a fish dies other bacteria attacks them and you can't get good results from an autopsy. When you send a fish to a lab they insist on a live fish.
    Mama Bear

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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    Hi all,
    Shan, I'm sorry for the delay here in my feedback, heavy dose of personal issues on the home front.

    Your experience here in this thread has been really sad to read through. But the numbers of people trying to help is really amazing. I think everyone has tried their best to give you help here, but sometimes its just difficult to identify an issue. And sometimes theres more than one issue thats happening.


    I'm not 100% sure what was killing your discus, my strong guess is it was a bacteria infection picking off one after another of stressed out fish...some of the fish had erosions of the body and fins, others had pimples that erupted, loss of appetite etc.. all could be bacteria ..The stringy feces initially could also have been and the metro would have knocked it back possibly but not treated it. You may have even had cryptobia... as many of the symptoms fit. All of the vids show the kills pumping and laboring. On top of that you had water issues which stress the fish and lower the immune response. Lastly you may have had nematodes as the angels do. It was a perfect storm. A lab analysis would possibly have helped here.


    Reading the posts it looks like the angels were added without sterilizing the tank? Thats problematic as they are very closely akin to Discus and get the same diseases for the most part..though they tend to be hardier and can act as reservoirs for illness.

    The round worms you are seeing may or may not have been in the discus ...no way to tell at this point but depending on the species of nematodes they can infect internal organs and tunnel through tissue..the damage open the fish up to opportunistic bacteria and pathogenic ones. Treatingg worms is one of those things that is best done as soon as possible and one of the only things I treat all new for (using levamisole). We have an old library on the forum thats not used much as no one knows where it is! Its from the forums early day. We were given permission to post the University of Florida articles....

    http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/...ematodes.shtml

    is a great article.

    My thoughts are if you continue to have issues.. bleach the tank and start over. Many of us have had to do that.,.. sick fish happen and with out a lab analysis we are all guessing.. sometime we are right, sometime we are lucky.

    I'm sorry your first venture into Discus was like this..... I've been keeping them now far longer than I want to admit as it makes me seem old... and I will tell you, I could write a book about my early days in the hobby and the fish I killed.

    al
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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    Al,

    Good to see you able to post again.

    Frank

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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    Thanks for your replies everyone and thank you Al. I actually did come across that article recently trying to research what exactly killed my angels and I've had a lot to learn. You are probably right that what killed my discus was a perfect storm of some kind of bacterial infection mixed with my strange ph fluctuation. Also that what killed my discus may not be what killed my angels. We truly will never know.

    To combat these issues I am using baking soda in my aging barrel to boost the KH from 1 to 5. I am keeping a steady PH of 7.4 doing this. I am also using a bit of RO right to help my water since it is 70TDS out of the tap.

    In other news, my angels are dying one by one as I just came home to another dead one. I have pretty much given up on these guys but will keep my head held high for the future. I will dawn soap clean the tank then bleach water rinse it and every single piece of equipment I have.

    After that I might let the tank sit dry for a week, then rinse again and start over anew with new sponges. It will take some weeks to cycle again but after I do cycle I have a question -

    If I were to follow the quarantine procedure Brian linked, would it be best to go ahead and try discus again? Or should I do angels again following the same QT procedure?

    I ask this because I really miss discus and am feeling confident that since I've gotten my PH under control, and have a plan for proper deworming, have a microscope, that maybe I'll be successful this time. Especially with Cary helping me with advice as I start over. Also if what killed my discus was different from what killed my angels, then getting angels may not help at all for my end goal.

    Thank you for your advice and wisdom
    Amateur discuskeeper, Professional doofus

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    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    I think that bleach alone will do the job. I'd go with Angels again. It would break your heart if you were to go with Discus and it not work out. I don't know about the baking soda either, but will wait for someone who knows more about that than me to respond.
    Last edited by LizStreithorst; 06-03-2020 at 07:22 PM.
    Mama Bear

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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    Shan,

    I will dawn soap clean the tank then bleach water rinse it and every single piece of equipment I have.
    The beach definetly, but no soap. It can be really hard to get rid of soap film .Bleach and Rinse is enough.


    As to the next fish... If you miss them, then I would try discus again. You are so far from where you started...There will be bumps. I saw you made a connection with Cary? Maybe have him guide you and if he has fry try them. Discus guys don't come much better than Cary. and of course the forum people here will help. If I was currently Breeding I would send you some but my pairs are separated for now.

    My quarantine recommendations have served me well. Some would say they are excessive, but They work for me.
    al
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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    Quote Originally Posted by fljones3 View Post
    al,

    good to see you able to post again.

    Frank
    thank you frank!
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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    Shan, Al didn't say anything about the baking soda so I guess it's OK.

    I have baby Discus but they are cute little 1" round guys right now. And I only have 25 a few of which I have only to increase the number in their 29 gallon tank . But if you can do Angels first, if they do well I would be delighted to send you some of mine in a couple of months. It's because I have to wait that long before I can select my future breeders.

    Try Kenny this time or Cary of course if he has anything available for sale if you have to buy your Discus. If you're up to waiting 2 months you can have 6 of mine free of charge. No shipping charge either. You have tried so hard. It would make me feel good about myself if I could give you some domestically bred healthy Discus. My entire heart wishes you success.
    Last edited by LizStreithorst; 06-03-2020 at 07:25 PM.
    Mama Bear

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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    Shan,

    I would do the angels. Then when you are ready & if my F1’s grow out, I will give you some of them. I am less than a couple of hours from you.

    Frank

    P.S. Liz has a good offer also!
    Last edited by fljones3; 06-03-2020 at 07:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    On the baking soda ...I use crushed coral in nylon stocking in my tanks here.. in most cases it will do the job where stability is needed. BAKING soda will push up your tanks salt concentration over time if you are only doing partial water changes.
    Al
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  14. #254
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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    Quote Originally Posted by fljones3 View Post
    Shan,

    I would do the angels. Then when you are ready & if my F1’s grow out, I will give you some of them. I am less than a couple of hours from you.

    Frank
    That is really generous and cool of you Frank.!

    Al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>We really could use your support. Please DONATE HERE Thanks!


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  15. #255
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seems to be getting worse, getting worried

    Quote Originally Posted by LizStreithorst View Post
    Shan, Al didn't say anything about the baking soda so I guess it's OK.

    I have baby Discus but they are cute little round guys right now. And I only have 25 a few of which I have only to increase the number in their 29 gallon tank. But if you can do Angels first, if they do well I would be delighted to send you some of mine in a couple of months. It's because I have to wait that long before I can select my future breeders.

    Try Kenny this time or Cary of course if he has anything available for sale if you have to buy your Discus. If you're up to waiting 2 months you can have 6 of mine free of charge. No shipping charge either. You have tried so hard. It would make me feel good about myself if I could give you some domestically bred healthy Discus. My entire heart wishes you success.
    Very nice of you Liz!
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>We really could use your support. Please DONATE HERE Thanks!


    Al Sabetta
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    Aquaticsuppliers.com

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