Pathogens ?

[coralbandit]

So I consider myself new to discus and only know from reading and rumor that many do not mix Asian and German discus together do to possible exposure of ' foreign ' pathogens .
I have never experienced this so wonder if any have actual real world info or experience with this .
One of my friends and a recipient of some of my Santarem juvis has run into a issue possibly from this ?
She has had the fish from me since the beginning of March . After 3 weeks in QT. she moved them to one tank that seemed to be the best fit for the for the 6 juvis .
Well one week later she has suffered the loss of probably all of them by today .. She has tried to come up with any other reason for this to have happened but really with all the other discus [Asian] in the tank being older and still alive I am at a loss to conclude anything else ..
Now these were my first spawn so I personally don't have a grow out history for them but know positively I lost not one through my time with them ..
Possible introduction of some foreign substance or water issue just don't seem a reasonable assumption with all other discus in tank still at status quo ..
Who wants to chime in on this and offer some guidance or help ?
I feel as devastated as she does so really want to do our best to figure out or at least come to some consensus on what may have happened .
My 3 month old juvis lasted about 1 week in the tank with the Asians . Could this really be a pathogen issue between the two and could it really strike down seemingly healthy fish in 1 week ?

[Willie]

In my experience, it has nothing to do with geography. Any two batches of discus put together can produce disease. I use a 6-week quarantine because I've seen disease pop up three weeks after quarantine.

Willie

[danotaylor]

Tom I had 2 groups of discus QT for 4 months separately, 1 group adult Asian imports, the other domestically bred FLSS from our forum owner Al Sabetta. Both groups super healthy, eating like pigs, NO signs of sickness or ill health at all. I actually had the Asian discus for 8 months with no issues, and had raised Al's fry that I received from Captain Tom from 2.5" to 4-5" over a 4 month period. I took my least fav Asian as a "hero fish" and added it to the other tank. Within 48hra I had 2 dead SS and the rest were seriously struggling. I was shocked. At Brian's suggestion I treated with 1tbsp/1gal salt and saved the lot. I then treated the 125 gal Asian discus tank the same, and then waited 6 weeks later then mixed the 2 groups successfully.
My theory is regarding immunity. The Asian group was immune and carriers of something the SS group was susceptible too. There was no reason to believe this would happen seeing them separately.
Hope this experience of mine helps bring clarity. Bless

[Iminit]

Tom as stated by Dan it can happen. Me knowing the situation I think the problem is the ifish discus. They more than likely have something yours are susceptible to. As you know I’ve mix mine with both store bought and Asian without a problem. Your fish being Hans fish haven’t been around any sick fish. But the ifish discus have no background and I would suspect they are just buying through wholesalers and selling online. Others have had problems with there fish.
It’s a shame she should have just added one and not all. We forget. This was the advice given to me when I bought the Hans discus. Also by adding the group the tank may have struggled with the new load and ammonia rose. Sorry to here.

[LizStreithorst]

Willie's right. Asian bread discus often carry hidden pathogens that they have immunity too. That's why we add just one fish and wait to see that all is well with it for several weeks before putting them all in. It's called the sacrificial lamb or hero fish. Just about everyone has made that mistake (including me). It is heart breaking, but there is no reason for her to blame herself. She just didn't know.

[coralbandit]

I appreciate all the responses .
Willie I guess any pathogen could have done them in ..If it was easily diagnosed [ like ich for example] then my bias would not have been so clear in my post .
Your comment that geography has nothing to do with it makes a lot of sense [Occam's razor ] but my bias led me right to the geographic pathogen ..
Daniel very interesting how you turned your situation around ..You guys really like salt here ...Not me ..I wonder if I should suggest salt treatment for the surviving fish even if they show no issue ? Iwould feel even worse if it caused trouble with other fish especially since I would never do it myself ..
I do understand the hero fish and many believe that is the last step of the 6-8 week QT protocol.
Liz can tell you from my post about getting my new discus from Hans , they got there own tank and a pair of my rams on day 2 ! I don't fool around and if [heaven forbid] there is something bad in my fish room [ be it my fish or new fish ] I am not hip to finding that out last ! It is the first thing I want to know ..I'll never have my new discus with other discus but all the same , air bubbles and whatever make the whole room very easily common ground for any issue ..It is hard to contain an issue to one tank IMO as bacteria travels in any manner that it can IMO.. I know I often feel a droplet of water hit me while I am standing near tanks so there is no denying that one tank in the same room can easily infect another for me and mine ..Cross contamination does not have to involve using the same net or syphon IMO .
Tom I don't think ammonia was an issue as the symptoms appeared after her water change ? I whole heartedly believe the Ifish are junk and from Asian breeders ..Cheap fish have no place in the discus world I want ..We all live and learn and I try to learn from others and my own experience.. This issue re affirm my belief in the quality of most Asian fish [not just discus] ..Everybody remember they have no hesitation selling the dwarf gourami .A fish they screwed up so bad it has its own issue now and they do nothing but continue to ship them out ..Latest studies suggest over 25% possibly 50% of the shipped gouramis leave China already infected ..NICE huh ?

Liz I feel bad I gave her the ok to move them without mentioning the only one ...Brakes my heart and I do feel responsible partially as a informational source for her ..I should have thought it out more ..
So from all bad must come some good ? I am relieved to be able to think my fish , possibly both fish are healthy but not compatible ?
My goal is not to sell fish but share fish .I already told her I have replacement fish for her if and when she feels ready but I know how hard this might be for her and many others to get over ..
It is very sad to say the least ..
Thanks you guys for your views and experience sometimes the stuff we know gets packed in tight behind the latest tidbit we are working on ..It is good to try to remember the info we know works when we are doing the same old thing again I guess..

[Iminit]

Thing is it’s not all Asian fish. There are many great breeders coming out of Asia. With strong disease free fish. You just have to know who your dealing with. Because there are many more just breeding and selling fish overseas. DM and US both deal with Asian fish but know there breeders and the fish they buy are quarantined and medicated there before sent here. Seems like discus are becoming a hot fish again and wholesalers are just there to sell. They do get some great looking fish but as a buyer you need to know what to do with them.

[Johnny95132]

Yep, I can attest to having mixed the German and Asian strains together, and then losing all but one of my stock. I placed 15 Han's discus from one of my growout tanks into a tank of 15 asian discus (from Golden State and Kenny's), and the resulting mix kept getting diseased. Granted, I was forced to put them together due to a power outage that knocked out power on my tank, but it was still a stupid move in hindsight. One by one the germans got diseased and died. I remember netting out dead fish every other week. On the other hand, the Asians did fine at first, but also showed signs of weakness such as fin rot. It was a water change one week that finally knocked the group out. For some reason, all my discus save for three asians, died after the water change. I learned my lesson to not mix the discus from different sources.

[LizStreithorst]

I'm not playing favorites here. I'm going from personal experience. Domestically bred Discus are clean, German Discus are clean, and Kenny's fish are clean. Even Kenny's should go through QT but chance taker that I was once I mixed Kenny's with Hansies many times without doing what I no longer do.

Discus production is big business in many parts of Asia. Increased population in a small area increases the spread of pathogens. It's the same here with cattle, goats, dogs, and chickens. Why should it be any different with Discus

When I do QT I do it in a different room with all different equipment for WC. That's the way QT should be done. I found out the hard way that QTing them in the same room can lead to disaster as well.

[NoFences]

Hello everyone! I’m the friend Tom is talking about, who mixed his young Santerams with the older Asian Discus I have had since last summer. First let me thank you all, and especially Tom, for your advice and opinions! I agree 100% that I should have started with one of the Santerams as a ‘hero’ fish - as I know to do that. Why I didn’t think of that, I don’t know (slapping myself)! Overconfidence that my Asians were healthy, and no doubts that Tom’s Santerams were totally healthy? I had been itching to get the little ones into the larger tank, as they were quickly outgrowing their 10g QT tank, and all it took was the prediction of the incoming snow storm knocking out power, and that dissolved the last bit of hesitation that I had. Dumb and dumber....and now, here I am, mourning the loss of 4 of the 6 Santerams. The good news is that one of the Santerams has not been affected at all, it seems. He is as energetic and hungry as he always had been. So whatever is going on in that tank, one of the remaining 2 Santerams seems to be able to handle it.

I’m with Tom as far a using salt, although I have some, and have used it in the past. Right now I have upped the temp in the 75g Discus tank, and have been dosing pure Metronidazole for the past 3 days, along with daily WC’s. I am sure an ammonia spike wasn’t the cause of the sudden deaths, as I had been cleaning and changing the water every other day, and am running an HOB and a canister on this tank (both well-seasoned).

I’m a bit handicapped right now, and have to type one-handed, so I’ve reached my limit and will close by thanking you all again for your insights!

[NoFences]

A quick PS: I had prepared the 10g QT tank for the Santerams, before they even arrived, with 5gs of water from the 75g and 5gs of fresh tap water (I have a well), and had maintained that mix of water throughout the 3 weeks prior to moving them into the 75g. I had done this specifically to create the exact environment they would be living in from day 1 - regardless of which tank it was. I thought this would be less stressful for them, as they would only have to get used to water different from Tom’s once. So, theoretically, wouldn’t they have been exposed to any pathogens the Asians release into the water column by my doing that?

[danotaylor]

G'day Tom and NoFences!! Would you mind sharing with us what your thoughts are against using salt? I would think that using a natural compound versus an antibiotic medication would be better on the fish. I was really surprised that Jeep suggested it, and to be honest was sceptical and nervous, but I needed to take immediate action and only had metro which was not the right med for the situation. But the proof was definitely in the pudding, eliminating whatever pathogen my (healthy) Asian discus carried, and from both tanks, so that I didn't need to bomb my tank with a broad spectrum antibiotic.
Your thoughts? Cheers,
Danny

[coralbandit]

I don't use antibiotics either anymore ?
If potassium permanganate doesn't work then often nothing will . I keep rid ich plus on hand also as it works for many external issues besides ich .
Salt may be natural but it is never naturally found where the fish I keep come from so it is as foreign as anything else ..
Just me ,I have not had to treat a fish in years and for me breeding I don't usually treat sick fish ..They can never be sold and I will never breed them once they have presented a issue that needs treatment so they find the freezer if things look grim for them ..Then I treat the tank with PP if I feel it was not a isolated case . Most times only a weak fish will become a target for infection ..Honestly I won't save a whole tank any faster then 1 fish ..They are of no use just like if there was only one ..IMO most people have issues when they try to keep sick fish or buy fish that were already previously sick .I know there is no way to tell if a healthy was ever sick so that goes back to sourcing ..I don't get many new fish very often ..With 60 tanks I can' lose ' one and still not consider it all bad like many others would ?
I know that is not how all deal with their fish but that is my approach ..

[NoFences]

Hello danotaylor! This is not exactly the entrance into SD’s forum that I wanted to make, but I’m sure I’ll learn a lot. I share most of the same prejudices against using salt in a freshwater tank that Tom does - although I have a much softer heart when it comes to sick or struggling fish My biggest issue with it is that once you add it to a tank it is much harder to remove than meds, since filtering with carbon won’t do a thing. And, if you use a sand substrate, some of the salt will remain in the sand unless you remove it all and rinse it well. My father used salt back when there were very few meds available to fish hobbyists, so I know it works for certain issues, but unless I’m using it in my small, bare bottom QT tank, or as a dip, I prefer to use meds created for the suspected disease I’m dealing with. My 75g Discus tank is bare bottom, but using salt is so far down on my priority list, that I didn’t even think to try it, but had already used pure Metro to treat the Asians in this tank for suspected flagella, and it seemed reasonable to me that all I had done was get the problem under control for the Asians (which seem to commonly carry them), but hadn’t eradicated them completely. Even though I had been using water from the 75g to partially replenish the water in the QT tank during the 3 weeks the Santerams were in that tank, I guess they hadn’t really been exposed to whatever got to them when having to live in direct contact with the Asians.

An update on the Santerams: The one that was struggling has more energy today, and is eating with some enthusiasm again. Not completely back to normal, but noticeably better. I don’t feel I should move the 2 surviving Santerams back to the QT tank, but will if folks think that would be best.

[Willie]

What you're describing is an experience that we've all had before. The more advanced a hobbyist you are, the more disease you've had to deal with. Back in the 90's, a discus plague was raging through the hobby. Bringing in unquarantined fish often resulted in wiping out the entire fish room. It's happened to me and I know it's happened to many others. So for us, quarantine becomes the default. In my case, it's a strict 6-week quarantine for discus. I once broke quarantine because a pair formed and spawned. That was a BIG mistake....

In practical terms, what it means is that you have an entire tank dedicated to every single purchase. Don't buy a single specimen because it's a beautiful specimen. Plan ahead and buy your discus in batches. The tank should be big enough that you can grow out the fish for as long as you need to.

I still have a quarantine tank which is used primarily as a hospital tank. I can crank the temp to 95F and salt heavily if necessary. I can use it as either a 10-gal or 20-gal quarantine depending on how many fish are sick. One of my altum angels that started losing finnage went through it three weeks ago. After a full course of metro and erythromycin, the fish was back in excellent health and the finnage is growing back. Between treatments, the tank just has straight tap water running without dechlor. Last week, I got a batch of German Blue Rams. They're sitting in quarantine right now.

Willie