Water quality

[bluelagoon]

I don't know the physics or formula for that for a steady drip on a certain size and other variations. If you fill two containers with water and drop a drop(this will be waste) of dye in each. Then remove 15% water in one and 75% in the other. Fill them back up and repeat the drop of dye(waste). Do this several times,change the water over and over. Which one will have more (darker:waste) accumulated more over a longer period of time to reach that threshold? Large volumes are easy to keep stable. But stock,water source,size of tank and frequency is the key. But if you look back in all the posts and see the discus that grew out in large frequent WC's in bare bottom tanks. History can speak for itself.

[Iminit]

Yeah I understand what your saying and maybe your math even proves it but... if you’ve got 40ppm of nitrate and you remove 15% in a 100g you now have 34ppm. Really didn’t do anything. Whereas if you remove 50% your down-to 20ppm. So if I do 50% every other day my tank will have no nitrates. Whereas your tank will still be in the high 20s to 30. You’ve got some great math but no real results. I never get the reason to not water change? It allways leads to problems.
Next what’s the purpose of growing huge fish? A contest to grow big fish? Sorry I don’t get it. Do you keep these fish? Or get rid of them for new ones? Is the goal to have the biggest discus? Why?

[peewee1]

Yeah I understand what your saying and maybe your math even proves it but... if you’ve got 40ppm of nitrate and you remove 15% in a 100g you now have 34ppm. Really didn’t do anything. Whereas if you remove 50% your down-to 20ppm. So if I do 50% every other day my tank will have no nitrates. Whereas your tank will still be in the high 20s to 30. You’ve got some great math but no real results. I never get the reason to not water change? It allways leads to problems.
Next what’s the purpose of growing huge fish? A contest to grow big fish? Sorry I don’t get it. Do you keep these fish? Or get rid of them for new ones? Is the goal to have the biggest discus? Why?

Growth can be subjective, Tom. I had spoken to Kenny about this. He explained that different species grow at different rates. I have 3 from 18 months ago which were about 4.5 to 5.0 inches then. Now in the 6.5 inches range. I added three more this past July that were 5.0 to 5.5 inches. The July fish are now larger than those that preceded them 9 months prior. They grew very fast. The exception being a Red Heckel from the last order which since July has maybe grown .5 inches, if that. We know that so many factors contribute to the growth of anything, including fish. With fish it would be genetics, the living conditions (water and changes), temperature, and nutrition. I can grow big fish in 30 gallons for water it appears. Except for the little Heckel.

[tacks]

I am curious what discus to you feel having the ability to grow fast. With proper care. Ed

[Iminit]

Thanks for the info peewee. I had no idea they grew for that long. How big are you second group? My Hans discus seem to grow the biggest. All between 5.5-6.5. Though I’ve never measured them. I bought 2 discus from uncle sams that I measured when I got them and they were 5 and 5.5. All the Hans fish are now bigger. Also 2 of my lfs discus are also bigger. I thought the US fish had stoped growing. Thinking they were older. Maybe they will grow again.

[peewee1]

Thanks for the info peewee. I had no idea they grew for that long. How big are you second group? My Hans discus seem to grow the biggest. All between 5.5-6.5. Though I’ve never measured them. I bought 2 discus from uncle sams that I measured when I got them and they were 5 and 5.5. All the Hans fish are now bigger. Also 2 of my lfs discus are also bigger. I thought the US fish had stoped growing. Thinking they were older. Maybe they will grow again.

Tom, I had read that they can grow to 3-4 inches in the first 6 months and to 5.5 inches in a year. In their second year 6-7 inches. It seems I read a thread on this forum that a Discus can live 15 years and reach up to 8 inches (20 centimeters) but they stop growing by the time they reach 2.5 years of age. I don't know who reported that but it seems reasonable to me.

Steve Mac Donald of Mac's Discus, who has been breeding and supplying discus to wholesalers, retail stores, and hobbyists world wide since 1985 and has been keeping discus as a hobby since the late 1970’s, claims "...they grow faster in smaller aquariums rather than large aquariums. My reasoning is simply, they burn fewer calories in a smaller tank due to lack of area to swim in." He also says, (I myself keep up to 6 fully grown fish in 30 gallons and I too have noticed the faster growth rates including the round shapes) "... also I use only 20, 30, and 50 gallon tanks. I use the 50 gallon tanks for young adults which are 4 inch and up. I use 30 gallon tanks for large broods of 60 fish in each tank until they are 2 ½ inch, then I split them into two 30 gallon tanks. I use my 20 gallon tanks for breeding tanks and to house up to 20 babies 2 ½ inch discus fish. By raising the discus fish in these smaller tanks I achieve uniform and faster growth. A 2 ½ inch discus fish is only three months old when they are shipped to customers. The growth rate from 2 ½ inch to 4 inch keeping the fish in a small aquarium will only take four more months. If I were to raise the same fish in 100 gallon tanks there growth rate would be cut in half, and it would take eight months to a year to get up to the same 4 inch size."

[dspeers]

Tom, Mervin
Please understand that I am not arguing for one method over another, nor do I feel this could keep up with a grow out tank. Perhaps a little further discussion. Lets make it 15% every day vs 60% every 4 days. Each day you add 1/4 drop of dye and change 15% water, or every 4 days you add 1 drop of dye and change 60 %. At the end of the 60% water change Your concentration of dye is 40% of max, whereas with a 15% water change your dye concentration is 85% max. Your max concentration of dye is the same in both systems but your minimum is higher in the higher frequency lower volume system. As far as what to do if you find you are way out of target parameters, e.g. Nitrates 40, small volumes go out the window till the system is again within parameters. I only looked at this to see whether using an Apex low flow system to change water was even feasible in a fresh water system....for adult discus

[Willie]

Following up on Don's point, water quality worsens even with frequent water changes if the amount of water changed is small. If you follow the math, even daily water changes < 50% will actually lead to higher nitrate levels. When changing water, change a lot! It's better to do it frequently, but if that doesn't fit your work schedule, make large water changes when you do. It's just math.

[peewee1]

Following up on Don's point, water quality worsens even with frequent water changes if the amount of water changed is small. If you follow the math, even daily water changes < 50% will actually lead to higher nitrate levels. When changing water, change a lot! It's better to do it frequently, but if that doesn't fit your work schedule, make large water changes when you do. It's just math.

Thanks, Willie. Curiosity led me to preform a nitrate test. The last 15% water change was 20 hours ago. The results is 0 ppm. I now wonder if the nitrates are being filtered via my filtration system? Is that possible? The other explanation could be that I am blessed with Holy water and don't realize it! I am going to try an ammonia, nitrite, and PH test. See what happens.

[peewee1]

Further test, relating to that which was posted above. Nitrite 0 ppm, Ammonia around .025 ppm and PH appears to at or below 6.0. Our county water system is supplied from deep underground springs, so it says on the water district website. Nothing seems off the chart to me and perhaps that is why I have been getting away with keeping 5 to 6 fish in a 30 gallon with the 15% water changes? The PH is most likely lower because I have a sock of peat moss in the filter.

[bluelagoon]

Thanks, Willie. Curiosity led me to preform a nitrate test. The last 15% water change was 20 hours ago. The results is 0 ppm. I now wonder if the nitrates are being filtered via my filtration system? Is that possible? The other explanation could be that I am blessed with Holy water and don't realize it! I am going to try an ammonia, nitrite, and PH test. See what happens.

The plants would make a difference in nitrate readings, but doesn't measure the microscopic nasties.

[bluelagoon]

One takes a big chance to wait a week to change a large 80-90% WC. That needs to be done every day or two or even three depending on the size tank. If you wait too long the water is very different from the water going in and may stress the fish. Especially in a smaller tank; it will take longer deplete the greater the volume of your tank.

[Willie]

Are we talking nitrites (NO2-) or nitrates (NO3-)? Any nitrite or ammonia (NH3) reading other than 0 means the tank is not fully cycled. Also, there are no filtration systems to remove nitrate.

Willie

[Iminit]

Peewee great info and since you’ve been doing it this way and succeeding with breeding it’s obvious it’s working. I think some of it is because the 6.0ph. Also your filtration. Yes I do remember Macs discus. He was new when I first started. Not many from than still around. Back than there was a breeder by me who was growing discus your way. Though in his tank he kept a high flow rate (not sure if it was power heads or filters or if for a time span daily). But he’s was growing huge discus that way. Small tanks big flow. But as for me in my planted tank. I started with 2-3” fish in a 45 for 4 weeks and moved them into the 125 still at or around 3”. I changed 50% water every other day and fed up to 10x a day and within the year mine all grew to 5” with half growing to 6+. So there are many ways to grow our fish.

[seanyuki]

Water quality People can argue all day long about wq’s. Fact is wq’s depend on your agenda. What you want to get out of your discus? My 2 cents.