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Thread: Water quality

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Water quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Iminit View Post
    Peewee great info and since you’ve been doing it this way and succeeding with breeding it’s obvious it’s working. I think some of it is because the 6.0ph. Also your filtration. Yes I do remember Macs discus. He was new when I first started. Not many from than still around. Back than there was a breeder by me who was growing discus your way. Though in his tank he kept a high flow rate (not sure if it was power heads or filters or if for a time span daily). But he’s was growing huge discus that way. Small tanks big flow. But as for me in my planted tank. I started with 2-3” fish in a 45 for 4 weeks and moved them into the 125 still at or around 3”. I changed 50% water every other day and fed up to 10x a day and within the year mine all grew to 5” with half growing to 6+. So there are many ways to grow our fish.
    Here is a link to Mac's blog "Discus Fish Grow Faster in a Smaller Aquarium" https://macsdiscus.com/blog/discus-f...ller-aquarium/

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Water quality

    Quote Originally Posted by peewee1 View Post
    Here is a link to Mac's blog "Discus Fish Grow Faster in a Smaller Aquarium" https://macsdiscus.com/blog/discus-f...ller-aquarium/
    I wonder why when folks use this method; most seem to have sickness in their tanks. Most discus diseases begin with dirty/water related issues. When the word "pristine" in most cases is used for discus. I would not take this approach; I cannot get antibiotics in my country and can't risk not being more diligent with maintenance and WC's. That method has been around since the aquarium hobby started. And most find it does not work with discus. Sounds like a good way to get "old tank syndrome".

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Water quality

    peewee, gotta wonder what your filtration design is that is essentially eliminating your Nitrates. Also think you may be onto something with a pH of < 6.5 which does strongly inhibit most pathogenic bacteria.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Water quality

    In my experience small water changes are always prefer over one large water change.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Water quality

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeers View Post
    peewee, gotta wonder what your filtration design is that is essentially eliminating your Nitrates. Also think you may be onto something with a pH of < 6.5 which does strongly inhibit most pathogenic bacteria.
    Nothing special about the filer. Aqua Clear rated at 300 gallons per hour. Two sponges, a Zero Carb bag, and a hand full of peat moss. I tested the ammonia again today 20 hours after the last water change and got the same ammonia reading of 0 to .25. I cleaned the filter, rinsed the sponges, and added a new Zero Carb bag. The nitrates are now 20 ppm.

  6. #36
    Silver Member Iminit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Water quality

    Peewee if your using the api test kit there have been many threads about false positives at .25. Thing with my tank is being planted I have to vacuum every water change. Usual about 50g to get everything clean. So the little water changes won’t work for me. Paul sorry about derailing your thread but I hope the info helps.

  7. #37
    Registered Member bluelagoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Water quality

    Quote Originally Posted by npaul65 View Post
    In my experience small water changes are always prefer over one large water change.
    You said you were new to discus. The old ways don't work for discus. There are salt water tanks, fresh water tanks and then there are discus tanks, planted or not. I've had them all and all are different when it comes to maintenance. If you can't provide pristine water conditions for discus, it'll catch up to you sooner or later. Best way not to have to use antibiotics is with lots of maintenance and fresh water to begun with. Dirty/depleted water is not healthy for any fish. Today's consensus you see a lot on the internet about larger more frequent WC's compared to the old literature.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Water quality

    Peewee, how often are you changing the zeocarb? Once it is exhausted your ammonia concentration will go up and your bacteria will take time to adjust. Stuff is great for emergencies but unless you keep it fresh you tank will recurrently be cycling as the bacteria will be suppressed when the zeocarb is new, then have to catch up when the adsorption capacity is reached and the ammonia concentration climbs....or you could be having a false positive. But that would also explain your nitrates swing from 0-20. Again could be due zeocarb or bad test.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Water quality

    New ways vs old ways, how much and when to do WCs, grow outs vs adults, heavy bioload vs light bioload, feeding regimen ( light feedings vs heavy feedings ), use of BH vs no BH, and finally.....matching new water to tank water are but a few of the multitude of factors when dealing w Discus WCs.

    I have not yet done breeding w Discus, so my thoughts are centered around adults. Certainly if I were to do growouts/ breeding, I would (especially w the use of BH) do daily larger WCs w bare bottom tanks w no plants. Having said this, I thought I’d share my thinking abt WCs for adults after having researched this thoroughly and having had a few years of Discus keeping under my belt. Whether I do Discus, koi, or other tropicals, WCs are surely a facet of the husbandry of keeping fish.

    The question of WC percentage and frequency is not a black and white one. The condition of one’s fish, nitrate levels, bioload, and general water parameters are the determining factors. While I do my WCs, there are several things that I keep in mind and endeavor to carry out to best meet the fishes’ needs. If, for example, my nitrate level goes much above 10, then I increase WC amounts and/or frequency.

    My regular WC percentage is around 60-70% every ten or so days w occasional 80-90% changes.
    I have super big filtration/water turnover. My 75g tank has two AC 110s, an 18g 48”x10”x13” above tank sump w mech filtration, 15-20 pounds of Matrix and Denitrate for aerobic and anaerobic bio filtration, two algae scrubbers, a nitrate reactor, and a mini chamber of resin bags. I also have pathos growing off the side of the tank w the roots in the tank. My turnover is abt 1400g per hour.
    I feed on the light side the 8 adults w a few Cories. My temp is 86-87 degrees.
    Regarding WCs.......and I know this will not make Python users happy, I use aged/aerated/heated water from my 45g storage Brute garbage cans. A day or so after refilling the storage can, I test for PH, KH, and GH to be sure the water I’m adding is THE same as what I remove. To me.....this is all important. A ways back I did the stick my finger in the water to match new water Temp w tank water temp, then I measured the actual two temps and found that what I felt as the same temp for both was actually 5 degrees off. That is not acceptable to me.....thus no Python system for me. My personal opinion is that many of the problems that happen is a result of water discrepancies from temp to PH,KH, and GH. My aging water is a mix of tap and RO making a steady 7.6 PH, 3-5 GH, and 3-5 KH w a temp of 87. Really.....think about it.....if every WC has water coming into the fish tank that’s 5 degrees warmer one week, 5 degrees cooler the next w different PHs, KHs, and GHs, there’s bound to be trouble.

    Also.....as part of my WC system, I vacuum the 1/2” to 3/4” coarse sand, wipe off glass, and clean prefilter sponges each time.

    I have learned to adjust my WCs to meet my fishes needs as best I can and have had success. The keeping of these fish, or any fish for that matter, must not become a chore. There has to be a balance of keeping ones fish healthy and keeping the husbandry fun. One reason why I don’t breed is that, since I do travel some, daily WCs are not really plausible for me and would quickly take the fun out of it along with eventual neglect due to the chore factor or my being away. IMHO, if one does a 15% WC every day, that is much better than none at all. If one does 100% a day and they are still having enjoyment, then fine. I would tend to think that if one did the 15% daily, they might consider 25%......if in doing so, interest is not compromised as 15% is on the small side. Filtration, feeding, and bioload are surely factors to consider for WCs. Lastly......no matter how hard one tries, there is almost surely going to be some differences in the water.....even going from 10-15 nitrates down to 0 w a WC. I prefer to not change all the water at once so as to keep the changes to fish water on the minimal side. That way....should there be a difference, only half the water at a given moment is being changed thus mixing w existing water to minimize impact/shock. Try to make the new water as close as possible to the tank water.

    I realize that my thoughts here are not as per the general thinking of many at this site, but I assure you the logistics of my ways are proven and successful.......for me. And....everyone is different, has different water, fish, bioloads, and experience. The trick is to work out what works for you that is sound, safe, and good for you and your fish.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Water quality

    Extraordinarily eloquent, thanks
    I had drafted some thoughts (type in word then cut and paste) but then got called away. Still going to post but somewhat of a poor second to a simple "what Bill said"

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Water quality

    Tom, FWIW I agree with large volume/time period changes to maintain pristine water. In a world where there are no plants, denitrifying bacteria, filter material that removes either ammonia or nitrites, nitrates are a good proxy for water quality, over 10-15, change your water.

    If you do have things other than dilution that change nitrates, figuring out volume/time is more problematic, I have yet to solve that issue. Ph helps, TDS helps, ORP if you want to measure helps, but none of these values seems to have the same linear relationship NO3 does absent the concentration modifiers noted above.

    What I do not agree with is that every water change must be massive and that small % changes are essentially worthless. I simply cannot find any evidence that there is any advantage to doing a 75% change every 24 hours vs 25% every 8 hours, or even 90 % every 10 hours vs 9 % every hour. In both examples the volume of fresh water added to the system is identical and the max concentration of say NO3 or any other contaminant would also be the same at the end of the 2 example periods. Average concentration would be higher with higher frequency lower volume changes but if max concentration is below the threshold of any harm, who cares.

    One theoretical concern is that larger individual water changes will reduce bacterial counts more effectively. Peewee uses peat and pH < 6.5 is bacteriostatic. I like UV systems.

    You can also argue why would you want to do a whole bunch more smaller water changes. In my case, because I want to use the Apex automatic water change system and the pumps have restricted volume, and I have only so much room for an aging tank. Also, I find the stability inherent in a low volume, high frequency system attractive, and I may even go to a constant flow approach.

    One caveat, this is not a good approach to grow out tanks if you are being generous with feedings, and/or using beef heart to maximize growth potential. Then you want to do a massive water change after feeding to remove any residual food and (as fish like infants have an active gastro-colic reflex aka eat then poop) resultant detritus.

    A second caveat, I have been out of discus keeping for nearly 40 years and my opinions as expressed above are on the basis of extensive reading over the last few months, so I cannot and do not claim that my approach has to date been validated by years of successful discus keeping. That will happen Hopefully once I finish setting up 2 150 gallon display tanks and one 60 gal quarantine tank.

    As a final thought, I think that Bill’s feedback and insights are outstanding and reminded me of a few things I also need to do in my system.

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