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Thread: Salt in Discus water.

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    Default Salt in Discus water.

    I am wanting to put salt in my tank water to prevent disease (1 table spoon per 20L). However, I have plants in there. Does salt water harm fresh water plants?

    Thanks

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    Registered Member Tony_S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excruci@ting
    I am wanting to put salt in my tank water to prevent disease (1 table spoon per 20L)
    Salt...or any other med shouldnt be used as a "tonic". You cant "prevent" something that isnt there to begin with.
    The only "preventative medicine" I know that works... is clean, stable water and good food.
    And...yes...salt will harm your plants, especially at that level.

    Tony
    The problem with people idiot proofing things, is the resulting evolution of the idiot....

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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    Thanks Tony.

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    Smile Re: Salt in Discus water.

    Salt has become the most misused product in the discus world since teddyJ and his potassium permanganate for whatever ails your discus or yourself philosophy. I think he used PP from a mouthwash to a high colonic flush as well as a meat tenderizer and a seasoning on salads.

    Salt is to be used as a temporary dip or bath. Discus do not "adjust or acclimate" to the high ionic concentration in a day or two (or even a week or two) as professed eroniously by many. They eveolved over a very large period of time in water with very little ionic concentration.

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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    Mat,
    I have read many posts where you have made similar comments on salt and how harmful it is to discus. Do you have any proof of this or is this your opinion?

    I know many many people, breeders and importers who have used salt as short term baths to stimulate slime coat turn over when dealing with Bacteria or external protozoans. I have had experienced aquatic Biologists and pathologists reccommend its use to me at far higher concentrations than I use. Some of my South American suppliers reccomend I use use it on wild discus that had a rough trip here, these are people that move 1000's of discus a years. Theres even breeders out there that throw a handful of rock salt into their tanks for the the fry to pick at...This they feel helps clean out their gills. Not sure I buy that one, but in theory it makes sense.

    You make it seem like salt use is some new craze in fish keeping. The reality is it is one on the oldest remedies used in aquaculture. It is routinely added to many species of fish that did not evolve in water with a fraction of the resulting conductivity. If anyone takes the time to do the math... The increase in conductivity when you add salt to any freshwater fish species environment is in the thousands range...Not one fresh water fish species thats exposed to salt evolved with it.


    I don't know what your personal experiences with Salt are Mat , if you have any , please share them . Since I have used it for years I'll share my direct experiences with everyone. I have used salt for years on fish for bacteria and protozoan. If you come to my fish room you will see an 80 lb bag of rock salt in the corner of the room. A short term bath of up to seven days and a concentration of up to 1 tablespoon/ 1gal water has NEVER shown any harmful effects on my fish.. I have fish that are over 5 years old and am going into my f2' and F3s in breeding with fish that were exposed to salt at this concentration and dose at least once. That would seem to contradict people claiming using salt will harm the kidneys. This claim by the way, I have yet to see proven, just hypothesized for discus and other freshwater fish.



    I agree with you that Discus did not evolve in water with high conductivity, but they also did not evolve water thats hard and alkaline, and yet are successfully kept by many in water that have pH's in the 8 +Range... additionally The water they evolved in has a conductivity of ~30- 50 Us.. They easily adapt to life in tanks with a conductivity of many times that.. some here have water that is between 800-1000 us continuously.

    How much a difference is there in going from water with a conductivity of 50 us(wild) to the average 400-600 us in most tanks? ... Thats a 8 -12 fold increase in conductivity. Many Breeders routinely switch from Ro water to tap when the fry are just freeswimming. I know many who use their Ro Waste water to grow out frys.. These fry experience that increase without issue. Thats pretty adaptive when you think about it .

    Lets get the facts out here, anyone else that has used salt please chime in.. Cary, Jeff Young, Frank from FCdiscus has used it, Danny NG?, Jack Taylor? Any of our Asian or european breeders? Whats everyones experience with salt been?


    I agree with you that Salt is over used and misused, But so is every med out there.Many of these have proven carcingoenic effects. My experiences with salt don't agree with your views on its safety Mat. I believe it can be used safely as medication ..Maybe others out there have experienced negatives when using it in the dose and duration that I am talking about? If so lets hear them so people can make an informed decision about The safety in using salt as a shortterm medication in their tanks.

    -al
    Legal Disclaimer... The above are My experiences and opinions and in no way am I trying to influence anyone to expose their fish to salt treatments..Use of this product should only be after extensive research on its potential side effect. Get the facts before doing or not doing anything you read about on the internet.
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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    I'd defenitely go with brew. One of the primary reasons why salt is used as a first step in quarantining/treating fish is fresh water protozoas are intolerant to salt water and marine pathogens die off in fresh water. Not only for discus, for my tetras, other cichlids and even arowanas whenever i doubt any symptom of any disease i drop rocksalt into the tank and have found excellent results. Also with every water change for discus i add small quantities of rock salt and sometimes my discus peck on it. Also have heard that many asian breeders use small amounts of salts regularly to their tanks(both for fry and breeding pairs).

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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    Al,

    I have advocated the use of salt as a short term bath or as a dip in stronger concentrations. That is not what I am saying. What I am stating is that salt is being extremely misused and this can be observed by posts right here on this forum. The first sign of any disease, someone is loading there tank with salt, even though there is absolutely no indication that salt would be effective for the symptoms present. How many times have you seen symptoms that would suggest tapeworms, capillaria, hexamita, or an internal bacterial infection and the poster says I added 1 tbs/10gal ? Why?

    If you privately ask all the posters registered on this forum what biological processes are involved in NaCl's effects on external parasites, if 50% can answer you correctly I would be astonished. So, knowing the process, why would anyone treat an internal disease with salt? This is further proved by the fact that many posting don't know the difference between table salt and epson salt.

    It is suggested that salt stimulates slime production. I buy that concept. Why do discus produce excess slime? Because of an irratation. The slime is its first line of defense of an external attack. This excess slime production could be (and its not even a stretch to think so, and in fact very well may be why) the result of the discus suffering an irration, esp. in light of the fact that NaCl is totally foreign to discus in the natural habitat. It could very well think it is suffering from a chemical attack, no different than chlorine or any other substance.

    If you recall the now infamous Maria Cruz, and her triple dip that was being used with huge success (and I was Maria, for those unaware of whom we speak), the first stage was a dip of at least 1 tbs. per gallon of salt to water. A dip in salt before any treatment for external parasites improves the effectiveness of the treatment.

    I don't believe anyone should use salt propholactically as was mentioned. I don't think you do either.

    Finally, (I am on break at work and must now get back to the lab) even the Grandaddy of all American discus men said in his column that salt has no place in the medicine chest of the discus keeper. Use it as a dip or short term bath if you must.

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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    Mat,
    I whole heartedly agree with you that Salt is misused. I feel many medications are. The problem is a basic one... there are too many well meaning people who advise without having tried something , but do so as if they had because they read it on a board, and theres too many that use medications that don't take the time to read about them. When it comes to my discus, I don't put anything in their tank that I don't take the time to learn about.


    I just disgree with you that the only way it should be used is as dip. My experience leads me to believe otherwise.

    It has been shown beneficial in treating certain bacterias and protozoans to maintain a higher salt concentration for a period of a week or less. Some bacterias require calcium and mg in the water to attach to their substrate, its been shown that sodium inhibits this by displacing the ca and Mg in many strains ( columnaris for example).

    The slime coat turn over I referred to is beneficial because the bacteria and in many cases the protozoan is on it... shed it , turn it over, stimulate more slim production and the pathogen is shed from the fish.. add in water changes and an appropriate med and the combined effect does IME , work well.

    I have a very great deal of respect for the Discus man you refer to and I think in his experiences , that may be true... but there are others in the hobby as well with a different background. I also believe that we should not stop learning where great men like these left off, but instead need to continue trying things and learning in our right, even where these areas conflict with what the past believed.

    If you have "Discus Health" by Dieter Untergasser, pg 255 " cooking salt (sodium chloride)..... can be used for a continuous treatment at a dose of 1 Gram 15 liters or for short baths (dips in a separate tank) at a dose of 10 grams per liter for 10-20 minutes. " This comes from probably the best discus disease expert out there. In that same text he states it can be used as a prophylactic for parasites at the above dose.


    I am not advocating the use of salt prophylactically..I believe it should be used as if a med. That means cautiously/ I just don't think that its accurate to say its bad to use in any way other than a dip, when theres so many that have shown otherwise. I understand the physiology of how it works and I just would like to see someone show facts that its harmful instead of making an opinion seem like a fact. If we don't do this then we are no better than those advising using salt for everything under the sun. Until those facts are written though I think stating it as an opinion is a more fair way of treating those that do believe in using Salt as other than a dip.

    -al

    ps mat, I'm glad to hear you are back in the lab, Its something I miss myself these days
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    WoW!!!!!!

    Good Topic,

    I would Say Myself that it would really depend on that persons water parameters more so..... And would depend on what they are dealing with that the salt was needled or even ok for There discus.


    But IMPE I have had good luck and bad! When I say good I mean that yes I have treated Young discus with as much as 1 cup per 10 gals for external bacteria From home grown Discus and Home Grown Bacteria with full success.
    Some of Theses Discus are still with Me And are at the age of 5 Years. Some but not all are still producing fry. This treatment I used was a 10 day treatment! There was only a small loss after the 10 days nothing Remarkable or nothing I would not expect from any other Med + treatment.

    Now When I say bad I have also used the same treatment on imported Discus with no success and lots of loss. However If I do move to a antibiotic for treatment or any other type of powder or pill form med for fish I believe salt should be used on the last few days of treatment or darning treatment to control the minor bacteria blooms that are encouraged by theses med's because of the high suger base that's added to make the med more water suitable. I guess what Am trying to say is IMPE I believe Salt will cure weaker or should I say mild strains of bacteria. And will not touch the more ramped strains at all with out killing the discus first.

    Also IMO a lot would depend on how many tanks and discus you have or even how much money or time you have. I agree with matt on the triple dip and agree that Hyde and PP are better used as dips. But if you have tons of tanks and discus it would take you a very long time to dip them all so with that said other methods are used. Again IMO its really hard to say what works better or what works at all! I believe it has a lot more to do with how its all carried out and water parameters to start!

    So with that said I would say yes salt has its place in the discus medcine Cabinet Infact most salt water fish are cured with fresh water treatments and fresh water fish cured with salt water treatment with lots of success around the world.

    Now for some fact hee.hee.hee..As most here in this post Know or should know that in the amazon the river runs west to east. But did You know Every year on march 28th the river begins to run east to west? like I said this happens every year when the sun,moon and earth Align. What happens is a solar pull on the tide is created in the middle of the Atlantic and causes the water to tidal boar into 8 feet waves. theses waves smash into brazil and the mouth of the amazon for most of the day. Will guess what? billions and billions of gallons of salt water are flushed up the river miles and miles away.
    In brazil the Brazilian call this event pota Roca meaning Giant Roar! Now there are know records of any fish loss because of this event and We all know that over half of the fresh water fish in the world come from the amazon. However Sad to say but every year there is a loss of human life and homes but now with what has been learned the numbers have dropped year by year.

    hth
    best wishes
    Cary Gld!

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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    Thanks for all your replies, seems that everyone has a different opinion which is fine. I have a little white diamond discus. He seems to have gone off his food, but still chases the other fish around the tank. His poop is clear/white. What does this mean? Will salt fix it?
    Last edited by Excruci@ting; 02-18-2005 at 02:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    Salt Could help at 1tbs per 10 gals.

    But will only help prevent secondary infections during Your metronidazole treatment!


    You will need very clean water and a very clean tank before You start treatment. You will also need to keep theses things clean durning treatment.

    More then likely Your fish has Hex or Spiro. You will need high temps around 90F makesure you also add a airstone. Add 500mg of metro to every ten gallons of water for 5 days. retreat daily with a full dose and w/c 50% daily after every dose 24hrs later.

    hth
    Cary Gld!

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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    Excellent post..........I personally use it, but I treat it as a medication. In the past I beleive it has saved many of my fish. As a recommendation from some of the folks that are replying to this post; I have used salt up to 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons with no ill effects. But again, it is being used as a medication. I do not use it to against something that is not there is not there in the first place.
    One different use I tried came on the advice of jimmyL. I had an adult that was not eating at all for about 2 weeks. Jimmy recommended that I drop in some rock salt and let him be. After 2 days I noticed that the discus would go over to the salt and peck at it. This went on for a week. After that, he began eating normally again. Maybe it was an accident, maybe not.

    Jim

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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    I don't have to elaborate what have already said. Before all these new medications were discovered by hobbyists. I was able to keep a wild brown from an egg to adult with salt, M. blue and formalin. She was in my tank for over 10 years and was able to breed the last time 3 months before her death. Very often salt bath for 7-10 days was the only remedy at those days. I still believe Teddy J speaks with experience for both salt and PP. I have adopted his method of PP usage for over 8 years, diligently bi-weekly 60 minutes treatment before large W/C with good results. I practically don't have to use any other med. if I can keep the tank clean with PP alone.

    Jimmy
    Last edited by JimmyL; 02-18-2005 at 09:46 AM.

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    Wink Re: Salt in Discus water.

    Even though teddyJ and myself spent more time arguing with each other than agreeing, my comment was tongue in cheek about his PP usage (actually, his PP treatment was lifted directly off The DISCUS RESOURCE PAGE from a 1999 article written by Peter Selph). I am not an advocate of its usage on fish, but do see the merits of its disinfecting qualities.

    The triple dip method is not practical to the big time breeder/importer as Cary suggested. It would be too time/labor intensive for large numbers of discus. It is quite effective, and very useful if treating a small number of fish.

    Okay Al, I will say salt OUGHT to be used only as a dip or short term bath instead of SHOULD be used ...
    Last edited by ShinShin; 02-19-2005 at 12:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Salt in Discus water.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinShin
    Even though teddyJ and myself spent more time arguing with each other than agreeing, my comment was tongue in cheek about his PP usage (actually, his PP treatment was lifted directly off The DISCUS RESOURCE PAGE from a 1999 article written by Peter Selph). I am not an advocate of its usage on fish, but do see the merits of its disinfecting qualities.

    The triple dip method is not practical to the big time breeder/importer as Cary suggested. It would be too time/labor intensive for large numbers of discus. It is quite effective, and very useful if treating a small number of fish.

    Okay Al, I will say salt OUGHT to be used only as a dip or short term bath instead of SHOULD be used ...
    Hi,

    Can anybody tell me who is TeddyJ and what kind of treatment with salt and PP is he using ? care to share ?

    Thanks

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