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Thread: I’m stumped

  1. #1
    Registered Member BrendanJ23's Avatar
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    Default I’m stumped

    1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
    Head stander(only when stationary) She swims and eats and poops perfectly fine, no signs of stress or any other symptoms. As soon as I move her to a hospital tank on her own, she is fine(when stationary and swimming)

    2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

    Just headstanding, bulge where swim bladder is. Otherwise perfectly ok.
    3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
    No meds, salt and epsom salt for 5 days.


    Tank/Water

    4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
    650L, 17 fish varying from 3inch to 7inch

    5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
    50% daily

    6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

    BB, RUNNING 12 months.
    7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
    Not any more (changed a few months ago)

    8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
    Prime

    9. Parameters and water source;

    Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


    - temp __29___

    - ph __7___

    - ammonia reading _0___

    - nitrite reading __0__

    - nitrate reading _5___

    What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

    - well water ____

    - municipal water ___X_

    - RO water ____


    10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
    Yes 7 discus but this problem occurred prior to them being added.

    11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can

    FDBW, occasional tetra color bits and ocean nutrition.
    .

  2. #2
    Registered Member BrendanJ23's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    She will normally be more vertical than shown in current photo. My guess is she is fine in the hospital tank, as I am not feeding her. But then as soon as she eats again, this causes the imbalance?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    Increased symptoms immediately post feeding would imply constipation. Cure for that is fiber, epsom salt and pushing the temp up to 30-31 degrees. Have you tried adding cooked peeled peas to the diet? If that works then given the demonstrated susceptibility, consider hydrating the FDBW (I am presuming your B is black, not blood) prior to feeding and switching to a main food source with more fiber. If you look at recipes for Beef Heart, some add peas, some bananas, all for fiber. Also Al sells FDBW with peas for fiber. Epson salt is a good cathartic, NaCl actually dehydrates the fish which it would seem to me would exacerbate the issue. Good bowel habits, be it for a human or fish is the 3Fs, fiber, fluid, and fun (meaning vigorous physical activity as in exercise, etc.)

  4. #4
    Registered Member BrendanJ23's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    Thanks Don. I buy direct from the black worm farm here in Aus, but can only see spinach as the additive, which I believe contains a good amount of fibre too?

    I might bump the temp and try the peas.

  5. #5
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    HI Brendan,
    Nice group of fish you have there. Sounds and looks like you have good husbandry in place.

    Id like some more info. How long has this fish been going through these periods of head standing? How many episodes? It sounds like its been an ongoing issue?

    It sounds like you are starting to draw some conclusions that this is related to eating if I understand you right?How long after eating do you typical see this behavior? Does it go away on its own or do you always have to use epsom salt?

    ALSO when you use epsom Salt how much do you use and how long does it take to work?


    Head stander(only when stationary) She swims and eats and poops perfectly fine, no signs of stress or any other symptoms.
    this would seem to indicate that there isnt a problem with blockages per say since the fish is passing feces normally without intervention or epsom.



    When you feed your fish do they go into a feeding frenzy? Does this fish pig out? Any dry foods can be a problem if the fish eats too much too fast. In times past I have had discus chow down on tetrabits so fast they then bloat up al as the food expands.... Its usually a more generalized big belly when they eat too much too fast.

    Localized swelling in the swim bladder that goes away and comes back repetively could possibly be some kind of bacterial infection or possible neurological. Has the fish ever darted and crashed?

    Best we get someone details on the episodes..


    AL
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 06-06-2020 at 04:15 AM.
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  6. #6
    Registered Member BrendanJ23's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    Although I haven’t written it down, it’s been happening for about the last 3 weeks or so. When I place her in a HT, the temp is usually 30, epsom salt at 1-2tsp/10 gal, and 1-2 tbsp salt/10 gal. 2 weeks previous I ran her through a course of kanaplex , nothing since (5 day treatment).
    In the last two weeks, all fish have been treated with prazi. I did this as a precaution when adding the new discus to the existing display tank/stock.

    As far as timelines, literally as soon as I take her from the display to the hospital, she is fine probably because she is not stationary. By the morning, (lets say 12hours) she is fine and usually has passed a good poo.

    All the other fish pig out and are always wanting food. She used to be like this but takes a backseat now.

    Continuing on timelines, I put her back into the main tank yesterday morning about 8am, and by about 4pm she was head standing. Yes the ocean nutrition pellets had caused swelling, as I hadn’t been pre soaking them. (I now pre soak all dry food apart from the FDBW).

    This fish has always been the healthiest and most resilient of my lot, and has never darted and crashed or done anything out of character. She was the “alpha” female if you will. She was always my “bench mark” or indicator of how things are in the tank as far as conditions etc go.

    I think I’ve covered it all... thanks again for your response!

    Edit: this is her right now, probably trying to make me a liar lol
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    Last edited by BrendanJ23; 06-06-2020 at 05:08 AM. Reason: Added photo

  7. #7
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    Tough call Brendan. Im not seeing a correlation to food here though. My suggestion is to keep the fish in the hospital tank for a week.. No meds no salt. Feed as normal and observe what happens. If the fish has been fine all this time with the foods you have been feeding its highly unlikely that its suddenly going to start having digestive issues unless theres an extraneous problem like a bacterial infection or a tumor of somekind...especially since this fish has been fine.

    If the fish is 100% fine in the hospital tank without medications or salt and then head stands as you place it back in the display tank then I would say theres got to be neurological cause..

    I think to really figure this out you need to isolate the fish and see if anything stands out as to whats causing this.

    AL
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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  8. #8
    Registered Member BrendanJ23's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    That’s a great idea, Al. I’ll move her today and follow up this post in a weeks time to share the results. Thanks again for your time and insight on this one, much appreciated!

  9. #9
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    Quote Originally Posted by BrendanJ23 View Post
    That’s a great idea, Al. I’ll move her today and follow up this post in a weeks time to share the results. Thanks again for your time and insight on this one, much appreciated!
    Good luck! Hopefully it will shed some light on this.

    al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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  10. #10
    Registered Member BrendanJ23's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    Hey again, sorry I think I’m a bit over due for the update.

    She had a week in the hospital tank with no meds or salt, just daily WC’s. Unfortunately nothing has changed.. I put her back in the main tank and it happened again. She still acts normal,eats, poo’s and fights as normal and will swim normally when in motion. I’m tempted to leave it be to be honest, unless I find definitive treatment at some point. That is unless of course she starts losing condition or actually sick.

    My only conclusion given my limited experience is when she eats, there is a “kink” in the digestive chain which makes her lose balance.
    21 Discus, 7 Green Tree Frogs, 3 Eastern Dwarf Tree frogs, 1 Coastal Carpet Python,6 sawshelled/Murray river turtles, 2 dogs, a cat, 2 kids and a wife. Phew...what a mouthful


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  11. #11
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    Brendan, the way I am reading this is that everything works with no head-standing or other symptoms when isolated in the HT, and resumes almost immediately on reintroduction when in the DT. Same food, same water, same temp.?

  12. #12
    Registered Member BrendanJ23's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    Yep same everything.
    21 Discus, 7 Green Tree Frogs, 3 Eastern Dwarf Tree frogs, 1 Coastal Carpet Python,6 sawshelled/Murray river turtles, 2 dogs, a cat, 2 kids and a wife. Phew...what a mouthful


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    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    Could it simply be a submissive posturing mate?

  14. #14
    Registered Member BrendanJ23's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    Quote Originally Posted by danotaylor View Post
    Could it simply be a submissive posturing mate?
    Not sure, I’ve not read about this before, an interesting point though. However the bulge returns when she enters the DT and starts eating again, so I think unlikely.
    21 Discus, 7 Green Tree Frogs, 3 Eastern Dwarf Tree frogs, 1 Coastal Carpet Python,6 sawshelled/Murray river turtles, 2 dogs, a cat, 2 kids and a wife. Phew...what a mouthful


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  15. #15
    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: I’m stumped

    When pairs are courting they bow and carry on, or when the no. 1 asserts itself other fish take a submissive posture, usually head down, so I was thinking maybe something along those lines since it stopped in the HT...but I forgot about the bulge...

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