Black discus

[pablos]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?


I got an aquarium few days ago for a person, who left the country. Unfortunately I don't have a contract with him, so can't ask about history of the not looking healty fish.
I haven't had a discus before, but one of 3 discus look suspicious. Can someone help me to identify is it a "black plague" or just stressed one.

Is there a way to help

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

• Discus is dark blue/ black as in attached photos
• Eating a little bit less than another discuses in the tank.
• Little bit less active than another, but swimming around.
  sometime sitting in the corner. It was hiding first two days when I moved the tank.
• Breathes faster than other discus ~2 times /sec
• No headstanding nor tailstanding
• Eyes are not cloudy
• No white zits on fish
  
  

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.


Nothing so far, but looking for your help. Should I use salt water (what about my plants: anubias, Java fern, Java moss and Amazon swords). Maybe using API general cure is an option?

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
Tank: 100cm, 50cm , 40 cm
Fish:
- 3 discuses
- 3 Pearl Gouram
- 6 silvertip tetra
- some Amano shrimps

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
I got this tank few days back, so haven't do the change yet. I will do as with different one: 20% weekly

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Tank is around 6 months old, but as mentioned I had moved it recently.
Tank has been moved with wet filter, wet sand, plants, so bacterias should be fine.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
24 hours. A little bit of swing between tap water: 7.0 and tank, which is 7.4 ph

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
Prime, as per instruction.

9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp 30 C

- ph 7.4

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0 mg/l

- nitrate reading 10 mg/l

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water 0%

- municipal water 100% (24 hours old + prime)

- RO water 0%


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
Nope


11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
twice a day:
- TetraMin® Tropical Flakes
- Tropical Discus Gran D-50 Plus


12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
photos attached, from both side
IMG_0613.jpg
IMG_0612.jpg

[peewee1]

Was the fish from either Thailand or Malaysia? I would guarantee pronto, if not sooner, at tank far far way from the rest of your tanks. If this fish has clamped Fins, excess slime, and leaning to one side as the photo suggests those are common symptoms of what is known as "Discus Plaque" of "Black Disease". The reason you distance the fish in QT is because the disease is thought to be an airborne virus.

[pablos]

Where I leave more less all stores are importing import from Thailand, Vietnam or Malaysia, I don't think it was an exception.
The black one doesn't lean to one side ... maybe photo is not adjusted properly. However, as you said it might have excess slime.


I read about plague there https://www.discus.com/diseases/disc...ral-infection/ so you might be right.

"The virus will run from one tank to another and spread across the whole farm or store in less than 2 or 3 days"

Other tank is on the different floor, so hopefully it safe there.
What about that one? All fish have been together for a while, so most likely two other discuses got it as well.

How should I help my discuses? Should I use salt, API General Cure, or maybe buy UV lamp.

[Iminit]

Ok that fish is stressed! I would remove from main tank and put in a qt tank. Did all these fish come together? Or did you add discus to tank? Your temp is to high for the gouramis. Next you need to change the water. For that fish in a qt tank daily at 50% for the others 3 times a week at 50%. I would rehome the gouramis.

[peewee1]

Ok that fish is stressed! I would remove from main tank and put in a qt tank. Did all these fish come together? Or did you add discus to tank? Your temp is to high for the gouramis. Next you need to change the water. For that fish in a qt tank daily at 50% for the others 3 times a week at 50%. I would rehome the gouramis.

Agreeing with Tom He's pretty spot on with these things. Increasing the temperature of the water up to 92 degrees Fahrenheit will increase discus metabolic function and help to boost fish’s immune system. If this fish does indeed have discus plague a stronger immune system, the less likely discus plague can kill it. To be safe I would go to 100% water change daily and prior to adding whatever meds you might end up using.

[pablos]

Was the fish from either Thailand or Malaysia?

Where I leave all fish are imported from Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia. I don't think it was an exception in this case.

Did all these fish come together? Or did you add discus to tank?

All come together.

... and prior to adding whatever meds you might end up using.

I see following in the local store:

Sera Mycopur - 50Ml - Fish Aquarium
Sera Costapur - 50Ml - Fish Aquarium
Sera Omnipur - 50Ml - Fish Aquarium

What should be the best one? I assume I need to take the active carbon out before applying meds.

[peewee1]

Where I leave all fish are imported from Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia. I don't think it was an exception in this case.


All come together.


I see following in the local store:

Sera Mycopur - 50Ml - Fish Aquarium
Sera Costapur - 50Ml - Fish Aquarium
Sera Omnipur - 50Ml - Fish Aquarium

What should be the best one? I assume I need to take the active carbon out before applying meds.

I would quarantine right away but wait until a few of the forum med specialists express their opinions. No point to treat until you know if the fish has an illness. What happens if this fish indeed does have Black disease it's a virus and as I understand it there is no cure for it. The virus is not the problem what happens is that the virus weakens the fish's immune system which in turn allows for the fish to become ill with something. Best to error on side of caution, as they say, and help the fish keep it's immune system strong so that it can fight off an illness. If the fish develops an identifiable illness then threat appropriately. Increase temp to 92 F in quarantine and water change.

[pablos]

ok, I will setup a quarantine tank for the blacky one tomorrow. It's always easier to thread it separately there and don't care about plant, temp, and size of tank in case of med application.

[peewee1]

ok, I will setup a quarantine tank for the blacky one tomorrow. It's always easier to thread it separately there and don't care about plant, temp, and size of tank in case of med application.

Andrew Soh, author "Discus The Naked Truth" claimed this:


Endobacteria (cause for Discus Plague)
Pathology department at Agri-food And Veterinary was my second home. I visited the laboratory practically weekly and provided them samples of sick plus healthy fishes, not for their studies but for my own enrichment program, ha…ha…ha…ha…. Finally, a Trouble-shooter was born (first class).
Here, we’re not going into which bacterium is responsible for the ‘black disease’ or the infamous ‘discus plague’. ‘Discus plague’ is definitely caused by bacteria. For those reader who like to be well-informed on taxonomy of bacteria or atlas of bacteria, I recommend to read books well-written by famous researchers. I’m too lacking in this area. I’m only good at solving problems….
Symptoms:
a) Body colour turning dark to black
b) Rapid and excessive secretion of slime coat (mucus)
c) Cluster together in groups near corners of tank (can be top or bottom)
d) Water mostly turns cloudy as the bacteria proliferation progresses
e) Loss of appetite
f) Spreading of this epidemic is systematic. If you fiddle or make water-change from tank no. 10 to tank no. 2, it will spread accordingly from Tank 10 to tank 2 and will not be the other way around nor at random. Also, good to note, if you didn’t handle or make water-change for tank 1, it will never be affected because the issue is not airborne, just contagious or cross-contaminate.
g) With no contingency plan, most will die off within 5 days (50% to 90%)

Cause: Multiple infestation and infection
a) Sudden introduction of new discus.
b) New discus being stressed with drop in immunity, it might very well your own existing bacteria starting the war.
c) Existing bacteria finding newly stocked discus an advantage to invade
d) Introduction of new or similar bacteria with higher resistance and not susceptible to the drug you have been using in your tank or hatchery
e) Of course, without damages and open wounds (maybe micron sized wounds), it is most daunting for the bacteria to trigger an invasion.
f) Multiple or collective effort by multiple bacteria to create more damages and penetrate the body.
g) Gram-negative bacteria is most likely the lethal culprit but we don’t care
h) Could it be virus? Definitely not!!!! Protozoan? Maybe. Bacteria? Definitely and likely multiple bacterial infection!!!! Darken body is an indicator of Endobacteria infection!!!!

Can I save my discus and save my investment? YES!!!!
What is the treatment: Antibiotic(s)
Method: Steps: Treatment should be done in the day, preferably morning
A) Disconnect all filters
�� Make 100% water-change
C) Fill up new water to 100 litre mark (this you have to measure and gauge in peace time before the war against discus plague strikes)
D) Give strong aeration
E) Tie sponge around the air-stone to collect dislodged slime (mucus)
F) Do a 2.5 hour to 3.0 hours high-dose antibiotic treatment of your choice
G) Best to be bactericidal.
H) Example: normal dosage for tetracycline is 1.8gm per 100 litres of water for 7 days (WC in 3 days and redoes to strength). For the 3 hours treatment, use 3.0 to 3.5gm for 100 litres of water. monitor
I) Example: normal dosage for Furazolidone is 1.2 to 1.5gm per 100 litres od water for 7 days. For 3 hours treatment, use 2.0 to 2.5gm for 100 litres of water.
J) Example: Kanamycin normal dose is 1.8gm per 100 litres of water. For the 3 hours treatment, it should be 3.0 to 3.5gm for 3 hours
K) Monitor well and if you find the discus dropping to the bottom during the short bath, immediately WC that tank and re-dose.
L) Dose is the same across the board regardless whether they are adult or babies. I think I don’t need to explain the logic behind my statement
M) After the short bath, make 100% water-change and dose with normal dose for 7 days and make WC whenever necessary and re-dose if needed
N) With this method, discus should start to show sign of recovery in two to 3 days…..but don’t get tempted to feed them and foul the water. Wait for at least full recovery before starting with feed.

If antibiotics can solve this ‘Discus Plague”, then it’s logical to presume it is not cause by virus. During Aquarama visit to my farm, I lost control of the crowd. Next day I exported discus to France and to Bay Aquarium of Australia. When the discus arrived most of them were dead. Two days later my hatchery of more than 1000 tanks caught the ‘Discus Plague’. Using the above method, all discus started recovering on the 3 day and fully recovered by fifth day. I only had 5 mortalities. In fact, I had saved many of our local breeders’ discus using this method (not to name names, about 4 hatcheries). Those who didn’t seek my advice or those who believed virus is the cause had mortality rate ranging from 60 to 90%. For those who are unable to solve this “Discus Plague” or find the cause for this epidemic, wrongly accused the VIRUSES as the culprit. Poor viruses…..
In my next topic, I will touch on viruses and how to differential whether it’s viral or whether it is bacterial and also touch on the topic “four week syndrome”, a name I coined for discus fries.
Thank you for reading, Andrew Soh

[CliffsDiscus]

Yes, it looks like the Black or Hockside is what they call this in Asia. My first experience was back in 87, they said the disease can from guppies in Asia. I remember losing tanks of Discus. The
article mention Dr.Ken Reeds well I know
one batch of Discus was sent to him by
a Hawaii Discus. Breeder without any results.
I have talked to the late Jack Wattley and

gave me his formula.
Lower the ph to cut down the bacterial count, do the large waterchanges daily,
wipe off the slime from the sides and bottom, no medication needed
Usually the Plague will last around
a week once your ph drops.
As far as your fish tank that you have gotten
they are all carry the Plague. Keep this contagious tank away from your family.
I did a blood test when I got the Plague,
signs of liver, due to breathing something toxic. Currently no problems as all Discus
are artificially raised. Wholesalers sometimes would ask if I am interested
in buying any Discus I just asked them if
they are Hot. Many Discus in Asia are place
in cement ponds that carry the Plague.

Cliff

[peewee1]

Yes, it looks like the Black or Hockside is what they call this in Asia. My first experience was back in 87, they said the disease can from guppies in Asia. I remember losing tanks of Discus. The
article mention Dr.Ken Reeds well I know
one batch of Discus was sent to him by
a Hawaii Discus. Breeder without any results.
I have talked to the late Jack Wattley and he
gave me his formula.
Lower the ph to cut down the bacterial count, do the large waterchanges daily,
wipe off the slime from the sides and bottom, no medication needed
Usually the Plague will last around
a week once your ph drops.
As far as your fish tank that you have gotten
they are all carry the Plague. Keep this contagious tank away from your family.
I did a blood test when I got the Plague,
sign

Okay, Pablos, Cliff says no medication needed. Keep the tank away from others. That because if it is the plague the virus is thought to be airborne. From air to water. Increase temp and as Cliff says to lower ph. Do all you can to maintain and increase the fish's immune system to help him fight infections.

[pablos]

Thanks a lot for the help. I start to prepare a quarantine tank.

Today morning I saw that the black one is a little bit brighter than yesterday evening and you can easily see a stripe on its head ... hopefully it we be better soon. Anyway I put this one separately, as suggested.

Unfortunately another one (see in the background) today is swimming sideways, so I guess disease has been already propagated
Is is it a good idea to take both into the quarantine tank and leave one in the main tank?

[peewee1]

Thanks a lot for the help. I start to prepare a quarantine tank.

Today morning I saw that the black one is a little bit brighter than yesterday evening and you can easily see a stripe on its head ... hopefully it we be better soon. Anyway I put this one separately, as suggested.

Unfortunately another one (see in the background) today is swimming sideways, so I guess disease has been already propagated
Is is it a good idea to take both into the quarantine tank and leave one in the main tank?

Since the treatment is the same I would put them both into the same quarantine.

[pablos]

I moved it to the hospital tank: 35L, 30C, pH 6.5.
Should there be a lamp in this tank, or daily light is fine?

[Shan_Evolved]

No light needed. Window ambience lighting is enough. Less light less stress