Seachem Safe and Prime/other conditioners

[bluelagoon]

Here are some links. They are long and will need to go to top of one page to read it all. What do you guys think?
http://aquariumscience.org/index.php...m%20dithionite.

http://aquariumscience.org/index.php...-conditioners/

[BrendanJ23]

Interesting read.

As far as the technical/chemistry side of things, I have no idea. However I do look for legitimacy in articles like these, of which I couldn’t see any. They say they are scientists and given the technical knowledge, probably are but there seems to be nothing to verify this.
I have no doubt there are marketing hype with a lot of products, they are a company after all. But until I saw some validation of reports such as these, I would be inclined to take it with a grain of salt.

It will be interesting to see what the other experienced keepers have to say.
Thanks for sharing.

[Makko]

Not that I doubted him, but Willie was spot on about turning safe into a solution.

[Megalodon]

I'm skeptical of many of Seachem's Prime and Safe claims and will be testing them all at some point.

[Willie]

I always mark my stock solutions and the SAFE stock solution was mixed up on 5/13/20. As of this morning (34 days later) it's working fine. I do 100% water changes, so I'll know immediately if the solution does not bind up chlorine. I made up 2 X 1 gallon stock solutions back then. The first gallon is almost used up so this batch will be used up before August. If there are stability problems, I'll make sure to report them here.

I was also prompted to read the marketing literature on the Seachem site, but it makes no sense. I have a Ph.D. in microbial biochemistry and don't see why thiosulfite compounds (they don't specify which exact ones) should have any stability issues when in solution. Will read through the www.aquariumscience.org discussion when there's time to understand their perspective.

[Megalodon]

I always mark my stock solutions and the SAFE stock solution was mixed up on 5/13/20. As of this morning (34 days later) it's working fine. I do 100% water changes, so I'll know immediately if the solution does not bind up chlorine. I made up 2 X 1 gallon stock solutions back then. The first gallon is almost used up so this batch will be used up before August. If there are stability problems, I'll make sure to report them here.

I was also prompted to read the marketing literature on the Seachem site, but it makes no sense. I have a Ph.D. in microbial biochemistry and don't see why thiosulfite compounds (they don't specify which exact ones) should have any stability issues when in solution. Will read through the www.aquariumscience.org discussion when there's time to understand their perspective.

Dithionite is unstable in aqueous solution. I don't seem to remember any of the other common dechlorinating agents having this issue.

Seachem says Prime isn't dithionite but also says Safe lacks the stabilizers Prime has to remain stable in solution.

[bluelagoon]

The chemist that I get my sodium thiosulfate from, tells me not to premix it. Something about the last part of the molecule not being stable enough. I don't know what he meant, I haven't got a university degree in chemistry.

[Willie]

Back when I was in college, sodium thiosulfate was the primary component of photo fixer. You used it to stop photography paper from over developing in the dark room. If left long enough, it will eventually decompose and you'll get that sulfur, rotten egg, type smell. But the fixer solutions came in large glass bottles back then and we used each container for 6+ months. Dithionites have the same property, although I've never had a solution develop the sulfur smell. Note that thiosulfate can dechlorinate, but is far less effective with chloramine.

In practical terms, stock solutions of both work fine in the aquarium. Discus people do so many water changes that the solution seldom goes stale. Obviously if your hands smell like rotten eggs afterwards, it'll be prudent to overdose.

[coralbandit]

I have premixed safe with RO water to make a solution for about 7 years now .
I mix 1 teaspoon into 500ml water and then the solution created is 1ml per 2g water for me . 1 bottle of solution treats 1,000 gallons for me [1 teaspoon of safe !]
I have a 15ml container that I dump in my 30g tanks and I eyeball thirds to dose every other tank or use multiple containers .
My mixes can last months but I use them much quicker now .I keep the solution in a black bicycle water bottle so no light ever hits it .Not sure if that matters .
Everyone has different levels of chlorine so there really is no set dose but I own a chlorine test kit and my solution has never failed me and works basically instantly ..
I buy safe by the kilo for aprox $20 which is 10X the amount of treatment as prime ..You are all paying the shipping cost for water ! 1 kilo of safe treats 250,000 gallons according to seachem . Nevr any harm in overdosing a little and certainly won't break the bank .
Next kilo I open puts me in the million gallon water change club !
I have read the web site last year and searched out some videos of David the author .
I wouldn't follow much of his advice personally ...He has a grudge against seachem and if you don't see it then I don't know what to say ????
He also never once offers any proof or shows any of his test to prove one thing ..I know a few chemist too ..They make ink jet cartridges and dye ..That doesn't make them fish experts in my book.
Not all titles/ degrees can cover the whole spectrum of their science …
Seachem will never offer any info to verify any of their claims so you all know ..NEVER .
The fish industry is COMPLETELY unregulated ..No penalty for fibbing at all !

[Makko]

1 teaspoon for 500ml solution that treats 1ml to 2g sounds perfect

[Megalodon]

I have premixed safe with RO water to make a solution for about 7 years now .
I mix 1 teaspoon into 500ml water and then the solution created is 1ml per 2g water for me . 1 bottle of solution treats 1,000 gallons for me [1 teaspoon of safe !]
I have a 15ml container that I dump in my 30g tanks and I eyeball thirds to dose every other tank or use multiple containers .
My mixes can last months but I use them much quicker now .I keep the solution in a black bicycle water bottle so no light ever hits it .Not sure if that matters .
Everyone has different levels of chlorine so there really is no set dose but I own a chlorine test kit and my solution has never failed me and works basically instantly ..
I buy safe by the kilo for aprox $20 which is 10X the amount of treatment as prime ..You are all paying the shipping cost for water ! 1 kilo of safe treats 250,000 gallons according to seachem . Nevr any harm in overdosing a little and certainly won't break the bank .
Next kilo I open puts me in the million gallon water change club !
I have read the web site last year and searched out some videos of David the author .
I wouldn't follow much of his advice personally ...He has a grudge against seachem and if you don't see it then I don't know what to say ????
He also never once offers any proof or shows any of his test to prove one thing ..I know a few chemist too ..They make ink jet cartridges and dye ..That doesn't make them fish experts in my book.
Not all titles/ degrees can cover the whole spectrum of their science …
Seachem will never offer any info to verify any of their claims so you all know ..NEVER .
The fish industry is COMPLETELY unregulated ..No penalty for fibbing at all !

1 tablespoon of Safe is 5 grams.

The recommended dose of Safe for 1,000 gal is 3,785 mg.

The dose for 1,000 gal of water is 100 mL of Prime.

There is the equivalent of 235 mg of Safe in 1 mL of Prime.

To make it the equivalent of Prime would require 23,500 mg, not 5,000 mg.

4 kg of Safe is only 3X more cost effective than 4 L of Prime.


Dave doesn't like Seachem...but why? Is it possible it's justified?

I was a Seachem fan when I was a newbie. Then they started making more and more ridiculous claims.

[Willie]

My SAFE stock solution is calibrated to 1 ml/gal, comparable to liquid versions of AmQuel, etc. My calculations show that 631 gm of the SAFE powder in one gallon of water gives me that dosage. I use a little food scale to measure out enough to make 2 X 1 gal of stock solution each time, which should last 3 - 4 months.

[Megalodon]

My SAFE stock solution is calibrated to 1 ml/gal, comparable to liquid versions of AmQuel, etc. My calculations show that 631 gm of the SAFE powder in one gallon of water gives me that dosage. I use a little food scale to measure out enough to make 2 X 1 gal of stock solution each time, which should last 3 - 4 months.

631 g Safe / 1 gal = 631 g / 3.785412 L = 166.693 g/L = 166.693 mg/mL

166.693 mg/mL * 0.515 mg Cl2 / mg = 85.847 mg Cl2 / mL

That's not even close to the amount of chlorine AmQuel neutralizes per mL.

[Willie]

My calculation is based on the directions on the package, i.e. 5 gm/300 gallons of tap water. Whether not chlorine neutralization capacity is similar or different, it's working as well, if not better. than the ChlorAm-X stock solutions I used to mix up.

[Megalodon]

My calculation is based on the directions on the package, i.e. 5 gm/300 gallons of tap water. Whether not chlorine neutralization capacity is similar or different, it's working as well, if not better. than the ChlorAm-X stock solutions I used to mix up.

How do you mix up your ClorAm-X stock solution? There aren't even dosing instructions for dechlorination on the jar or website.

The directions on the back and from Seachem aren't to be trusted.

I measure dry dechlorinators using a semi-analytical balance with a readability of 0.01 mg and repeatability of 0.02 mg. It has an internal calibration mass but I also check it with a set of Class 0 and Class 1 calibration masses. If I put a 1 mg calibration mass on it, it will read 1.000 mg.

Liquids are measured using micropipettes and calibrated gravimetrically using the aforementioned balance.

Chlorine is measured using the same equipment water treatment plants use.

I've developed a strict procedure where I weigh or measure out small amounts of dechlorinator and use it to incrementally dechlorinate my tap water. That generates a graph of dechlorinator dose vs. total chlorine whose slope is essentially the "concentration" of a dechlorinator in terms of mg chlorine per mL or mg of dechlorinator.

The numbers provided by Seachem are complete garbage. Any calculation relying on those numbers are also garbage.