Water Temp and Parameters

[Vinni Smith]

Good morning everyone.

I have a question for all of you "In the Know".

In the last 3 months I have been learning about and observing discus.
They are much different than they were in the 70s when we had them.
That's for sure!

Big observation...
My fish seem to be happier at 90 degrees instead of 86.
I first noticed this when I had Hex last month and was advised to raise the temp and ad Metro.
Did the trick and all back to normal.

I purchased another heater last week for future use with treating for stuff.
A couple of the fish are slow, picky eaters and are a big timid when I walk up to the tank and especially if a stranger walks by.
I raised the temp just to see what would happen and they are all very happy, active and friendly.

Bigger question....
Will it hurt them to keep the temp at 90?
I have read that Heckles like that but I am not raising Heckles.

I know you will ask, so here is my water parameters
Nitrate 10
Alkaline 50
PH 6.5 out of the tap! I know, I am lucky with the water here in Nashville.
Water is very hard however.
I am doing 25% WC daily.
112 gallons
10 fish from 3" - 5"

Thanks everyone. Love being part of this forum with you all.

VincenZo

[captainandy]

I used to keep them at 86-88 but when I changed to a heavily planted tank I lowered it to 82 and they are the same. Eat like pigs and active, no problems for over 6 months.

[fljones3]

I use to keep mine at 86F but now 84F. They eat with gusto. Higher temps lower O2 levels and increase the chance of bacteria growth is my understanding. I have read that higher temps = higher metabolism = shorter life span. Slow, picky eaters might be overfeeding so they are not interested, adjusting to the surroundings, or just stressed. How often are you feeding? I would cut down to a smaller amount (what they totally eat in 10-20 min) of food for your feeding schedule for several days and see if activity picks up.

[Vinni Smith]

I do understand they like fresh water and I get that a WC every day seems right.
However, it just seems to keep them stirred up and stressed.
Seems like there has to be a better way.

I know I would not like it if Molly Maid came here every day and I had to put up with that.

[fljones3]

Try 30% every other day. Just watch the chemistry and waste.
I assume that the water chemistries are similar.

I do understand they like fresh water and I get that a WC every day seems right.
However, it just seems to keep them stirred up and stressed.
Seems like there has to be a better way.

I know I would not like it if Molly Maid came here every day and I had to put up with that.

[peewee1]

Try 30% every other day. Just watch the chemistry and waste.
I assume that the water chemistries are similar.

This would equate to the 15% per day that I maintain but I too could switch to 30% every other day if for no other reason than to reduce stress if indeed there is any stress. Worth a try.

[Vinni Smith]

Thanks for the thoughts guys.
I am going to do the 30% every other day and see.

Now, when I do WCs I always use the gravel siphon even though I don't have gravel.
They HATE that thing.
When I walk to the tank they all run over and greet me.
As soon as I hold up the siphon, they take off and hide.

I am going to rig up a WC system so all I have to do is flip a switch.
Maybe with a power head?
I don't want to drill a lot of holes in the top of my new acrylic tank until I have it all planned in my mind.
But I am thinking a clear tube, maybe 2" ID going to 1/4" off the bottom in the right rear corner with a power head on the top will do the trick.
Then those fish won't even know what hit them!

What do you think about that?

[Vinni Smith]

OK, one more question for you all on this subject...

Does a power head have to be under the water to pump water out of the tank?
In other words, could I install a power head on the top of the tank with a 1"ID clear tube going close to the bottom and will it still suck water that way?

[Willie]

I rely on gravity to get water out of the tank. Emptying 75 gallons takes 15 minutes (less if you buy an extra Python). I do use a pump to refill the tank. All my discus and angelfish tanks get 100% changes and skittishness has never been a problem.

Teenagers complaining about cold showers has been the problem.

[unicast]

Will it hurt them to keep the temp at 90?

They are ok with 90. But there is one possible issue - hex disease probability is much higher.

PH 6.5 out of the tap! I know, I am lucky with the water here in Nashville.
Water is very hard however.

Try to collect rainwater and mix

[Vinni Smith]

I have been thinking real hard about this water change thing.
Now, I am not saying anyone is wrong, please understand.
You folks know so much more about discus than I.
This stuff is just rolling around in my head right now.

If you change say 75% of the water daily, then you are eliminating all the waste.
You are not filtering it out. You are eliminating it.
So, if that is the case, where does the bio filters get their food.
And 2nd question, are the bio filters even healthy and strong?
If there is never ammonia in the water, then there is no nitrite.
You see where I am going with this?

I was talking with Gabe Posada yesterday.
I have watched his videos for quite some time now.
He is a very strong advocate for 25% once a week if you feed correctly.
And if you keep 1 fish per 10 gallons.

Now, just off the cuff, Gabe's approach seems correct to me.

Again, I am not saying anyone here is wrong.
You folks know so much more about discus keeping than I do.
However, I have kept aquariums all of my life.
And I do know this, it is not a cycle that our tanks go thru.
It is a progression.
A progression that happens millions of times.

OK, I have on my flame retardant suit.
LOL

[Willie]

As an example, I run 2 X 2 Hydro V sponge filters in a bare bottom 75 gallon tank with 7 big discus. This tank gets 100% water changes daily. Once a week, I squeeze out the four sponge filters and they are dirty. The bucket turns brownish and I can't see my hand in the water. Over time, the sponges will get slimy with bacteria. Once a week, I wipe down the inside surfaces of the tank and they're also slimy. So bacteria grow on surfaces. They don't float in water. And even with a complete water change daily, there is more than enough ammonia (actually urea) secreted by the fish to sustain bacterial growth.

As for Gabe, you have to ask exactly what is his experience with raising discus? Gabe imports discus and he sells them. If he does a good job, he can turn them around in two weeks. If not, he turns them around in eight weeks. After that, he's losing money. Gabe doesn't raise discus, he doesn't spawn discus, he distributes discus. Gabe talks about breeding discus, but that was three decades ago when he worked for Jack Wattley. Nothing against Gabe, but his experience is similar to all other discus importers.

Gabe's mentor, Jack Wattley, was the first to preach making large, frequent water changes. Jack bred discus, raised the spawns, selected the best, bred them to each other, raise the spawns again to adult size, etc. Jack raised multiple generations of discus before creating the turquoise strain. That's why Jack knows how to grow healthy discus.

[peewee1]

A value to any forum is to have the ability to question, discuss, and debate. As you know opinions are mixed. The water change topic had to have evolved by trial and error and I notice the common theme is that there must be a water change. Percent changes are all over the place. Two long time breeder/sellers, Gabe and Steven Mac Donald recommend 25% per week. How can they be wrong? They maintain thousands of fish every year. I believe that Al, another well respected expert is near to 100% per day, if I am correct? So what's right? I think what is right is what is working for you and what both you and your fish are comfortable with. I have for the past two years have changed around 100% per week. I may try less percent change for the summer, rather than more. I think that less would be better for some of the reasons that you mentioned. My target might be in the 50% per week range but I am still pondering that. And with all of that said, Willie, an expert, makes a qualified case to the opposite.

[fljones3]

That's not all Gabe has said on the subject (I am not defending or negating Gabe). WC frequency depends on a lot of factors - your water (aged?), size of fish, number of fish, type of fish, bioload, feeding, etc. Many on the forum have the ability to do 90-100% daily WC. Some have tried that, and had their fish stress or worst, die. Was it the WC? In many cases, one is just guessing. Gabe has mentioned these factors in other videos. "IF" you met all his footnotes then "maybe" 25% weekly would work. Another question is, are you trying to maximize growth or not? Lots of variables.

You stated that the fish are stressed in a WC. That is why I suggested going every other day to see how that goes, monitoring water parameters, and making sure you are feeding properly. I think most fish keepers, at least starting out, feed too heavily. The bioload can go up rapidly and then, all the sudden, you have problems. Discus need good water.

I have been changing water in my fry tank, 40% or so daily since their birth. They are increasing the bioload and with heavy feeding, I decided yesterday to go with a 40% daily in the morning with a 20% get-out-the-waste WC in the latter afternoon/early evening. My adult discus I change their water 30% every other day.

Some things to consider ...

I have been thinking real hard about this water change thing.

I was talking with Gabe Posada yesterday.
I have watched his videos for quite some time now.
He is a very strong advocate for 25% once a week if you feed correctly.
And if you keep 1 fish per 10 gallons.

Now, just off the cuff, Gabe's approach seems correct to me.

[bluelagoon]

Just to mention. I've been keeping aquariums for about 50 years. In the early years all planted tanks. Always did about 25-30% weekly WC's and had diseases now and then; until I came to keeping discus. I kept discus for about 18 of those years up til about a year and a half ago; now I'm discusless (not even a word). Now I change 80-90% regularly on all my fish tanks. I haven't had a disease in the tanks for a long, long time. But on occasion I treat new fish that I don't trust in a QT tank with malachite green and formalin. I contribute this for this forum and the large WC's it promotes. Discus are for the most part a bit more sensitive to water conditions than most other species, but my other tanks do excellent with the larger WC's. As mentioned above the fish excrete enough waste to maintain the cycle and the bacteria is on the surfaces and not the water. It really makes sense to keep any living things environment clean. Dirty water in a small enclosed environment is not good. Dirty water (not pristine) does seem to retard growth in young discus and cause disease in adults.