30gal/4disc, is it REALLY bad idea?

[wireless0426]

Hi all,*I want to hear your opinions about the number of discus and some other issues about extensive feeding.

I'm researching an adequate number of discus per tank, and found that people quite often ask about 30gal tank, with 5 juvies, including myself. Mostly negative responses so far, but is it really a bad idea? Wait, I know it's already been 'discused' a lot. What I found as a general rule are 1) minimum ~55gal, 2) minimum 6 pack, 3) 10gal/fish. I am not against it, instead I totally agree with the rules 'in general', but people out there would buy smaller tank with smaller pack numbers, no matter what experts recommend.

Then, rather than just say no, why don't we find a better way to provide them an underlying principle and comprehensive explanation about the rules? *Is it really impossible to make discus happy in 30gal tank?*

What confused me - and probably many other beginners - was that many 'reliable' breeders came up on youtube with their discus tank literally full of fishes. What I thought was that *if a person could maintain water clean enough, isn't it okay to have a bit more fish than 10gal/fish? Why not 30gal/5juvies?

Then another question rises here, how much water change should one do to maintain 'clean enough' water condition? Here's another point that I want to discuss; I think most of the previous explanation was based on the assumption that we should get them as big/fat as possible. So one should feed the juvies with an extensive diet including beefheart and live foods, 5-6time/day, to make full use of the 'potential' of the fish. But I don't think big/fat fish are always happy. Of course we need to provide them enough food to avoid stunted one, but I think it's not necessary to stuff the food into their throat. (think about wild caught, they're not always 'beasts' but still beautiful).*

So back to my question, assume that if one could do extensive water change, like 50%/day or more, and doesn't aim 'the beasts' but just want to enjoy the healthy discus, is it still really impossible to make them happy in a 30 gal tank?*

Another point that I was wondering about is '6 pack minimum rule'. What I understand is that it is based on schooling behavior of the fish and also about distributing the aggression of 'alpha' so that the others are not stressed out too much. However, I often see a more problematic situation is bullying of the weakest one, and it becomes fatal even in the situation where you have more than 6 fishes. It looks like most often - and right- advice is to provide better water quality and introduce more discus or some community fish, but what if one couldn't, like in a 30gal tank situation?*

Can't we use some simple layouts, (big rock or fake plants while maintaining BB), providing alpha confined territory, and giving weaker ones a good hiding place to reduce a fatality when bullying occurs? (I think this would be helpful for even bigger tanks as well.) Can anyone share the experiment on this idea?*

I understand that there would be any definitive answer on these kinds of questions. Just wanted to hear valuable opinions from experienced discus keepers.*

Thanks!
Min*

[fljones3]

Welcome to the forum! Whenever you ask concerning best practice, you are always asking for optimal conditions for a healthy group of discus. I don’t think that the generally accepted standard of minimal of 55g (I have heard 75g), 10g per fish, and a quantity of 6 discus are confusing for a beginner. They may not understand “why” but that’s a learning process. If you read the sticky posts on the beginner section of this forum, you will find explanations for about everything. Sometimes the details might differ but the consensus is pretty even. For instance, there are many opinions on water changes (frequency and amount) but there is consensus that WC are necessary.

In my experience and interaction with breeders (at least on this site), no one has hit me with the “get them as big and fat as possible.” The goal are healthy discus and a pleasant experience for the hobbyist. You can move outside the acceptable perspective on having discus but you need to understand the issues that might arise. There may be exceptions to the rule but in many cases that might confirm the rule. One can elevate the “exceptions” but remember that people don’t know the number of “exceptions” that failed.

I chose to listen to experience instead of being suspicious. The forum welcomes questions and is pretty patient with the repeated questions of beginners (or for that matter, those with experience). Read, think through, and enjoy your tank setup. Hopefully, the goal of healthy discus and a pleasant experience for you will be a reality. Post your discus, setup, and learning progress. Be prepared to hear the consensus if you depart but that’s OK. We are pretty passionate about healthy discus around here. You will be also.

[peewee1]

For me I take two directions on this. For a breeding tank I use 20 gallons and 2 fish. Next to that tank I have kept up to 6 fish in a 30 gallon. Or 1 fish for 5 gallons. There are two rules of thumb, both are unproven as far as I know. One is to keep a minimum of 6 fish because discus are schooling fish and with 6 fish the aggressive nature of the fish is diffused. And the 1 fish per 10 gallons belief. That would mean that if you were to follow both rules the minimum tank size would be 60.

The only constant that everyone seems to agree on is that water changes are necessary. As to what percent is as varied as fish per gallon and minimum number of fish kept in the aquarium. Is there any study that pinpoints any of this with facts and figures? I do not know. Right now I am looking at a 20 gallon breeding tank with 2 fish both grouped to the left side. They are occupying 20% of the tank's space and no aggression. Next to that is a 30 gallon tank with 4 fish, Two occupy the right side and 2 occupy the left side. Again no aggression. All of these fish are adults ranging from 4.5 inches to 7 inches. I know that I can add 1 more adult to the 30 gallon tank because before I established the breeding tank there were 5 fish living in that tank.

Regarding water changes. The least I have read is 25% per week up to 100% per day. Based on what? For me I spread out the water change over one week for a total of 100%. To summarize I keep 2 fish at 1/10 ratio of fish per gallon and 5 fish at 1/6 ratio.What is constant is the food and feeding time and amounts, temperature of the water, and percent of water change at 100% per week.

[Iminit]

Me I grind my teeth at the 6 min for any fish. Sorry I don’t buy it. As a beginner yes I think you can start with a 30 and 4 fish. Next will be what are your plans. Do you want the full discus experience or just to have discus? Full would be growing them from small. Much riskier but cheaper. Buy 2-2 1/2” discus and grow them out. This would require 50% water changes daily (15g) and at least 6 feeding a day. Me I would stay away from both beefheart and live food. Especially live food!! Feed freeze dried black worms and quality pellet food. If you do this you should succeed. Buy your fish from a good source. As a beginner I’d recommend Hans. He just has strong fish. This way you have the fun of growing out your own fish. They grow in your water. If you end up enjoying it you may want to move up to a bigger tank. If not you’ve only put so much into it but still had an enjoyable time with discus.
Next if you just want the fish to look at and enjoy buy 5+” size discus. Get your 4 and again change the water 50% daily for at least a month. Than slow it down every other day for a few week then every 2 days. But you have to pay attention to the discus. They will tell you they can’t handle the water quality. Once you see them not happy go back to the last way and stay with it. Clean water no matter what is said is key to discus success.
When people say 6 many beginners dont try. In Europe and the rest of the world they don’t use the big tanks of the U.S. So many do keep discus in smaller tanks. Good luck with your adventure. Remember it’s a hobby have fun!

[peewee1]

By the way, my short answer to your topic question is that 4 fish in a 30 gallon tank is a really good idea.

[Oxboy]

I think it would be great if breeders found a way to make healthy 3" adult strains. Maybe instead of 4 hubcaps in a 55, some us would rather have 10 3-inch adults. I'm talking healthy and happy adult funsize discus, not stunted footballs. If we can eventually get chihuahuas from wolves, we should be able to get silver dollars from pancakes.

[Iminit]

Lol oxboy!! Right on target! Yes many more would have discus. Next if we could keep them in cooler water. I took an almost 20yr break from discus and I’m shocked nobody has attempted these things. Much nicer colors but still hard fish to keep. Hey truth the little footballs don’t bother me. I’ve seen many with them and happy!

[peewee1]

I think it would be great if breeders found a way to make healthy 3" adult strains. Maybe instead of 4 hubcaps in a 55, some us would rather have 10 3-inch adults. I'm talking healthy and happy adult funsize discus, not stunted footballs. If we can eventually get chihuahuas from wolves, we should be able to get silver dollars from pancakes.

If it can be done with dogs and horses then it can be done with discus. The underlying goal must be to sell large potential show fish. Dinky Discus could be an idea to take to the market. Tom might want to sell them at the Chelsea mawket over there on Lonk Island. (I hope that Tom hasn't minded the teasing that I've been giving him).

[wireless0426]

fljones3, Thank you for your comment! Yes you're right, I'm reading a lot of stuff there and I think I am getting some underlying consensus in there.

I am researching on the 30gal discus tank, because A. I only have 30gal tank and don't think I could get bigger one in near future (but I have additional 5gal sump tank there) B. I know many people are already enjoying the discus in relatively smaller tank (smaller means here 30gal ~ 45gal), but the informations are pretty limited about the smaller tank setup.

[wireless0426]

The only constant that everyone seems to agree on is that water changes are necessary. As to what percent is as varied as fish per gallon and minimum number of fish kept in the aquarium. Is there any study that pinpoints any of this with facts and figures? I do not know. Right now I am looking at a 20 gallon breeding tank with 2 fish both grouped to the left side. They are occupying 20% of the tank's space and no aggression. Next to that is a 30 gallon tank with 4 fish, Two occupy the right side and 2 occupy the left side. Again no aggression. All of these fish are adults ranging from 4.5 inches to 7 inches. I know that I can add 1 more adult to the 30 gallon tank because before I established the breeding tank there were 5 fish living in that tank.

Regarding water changes. The least I have read is 25% per week up to 100% per day. Based on what? For me I spread out the water change over one week for a total of 100%. To summarize I keep 2 fish at 1/10 ratio of fish per gallon and 5 fish at 1/6 ratio.What is constant is the food and feeding time and amounts, temperature of the water, and percent of water change at 100% per week.

Thank you for sharing your experience! It would be really helpful!

[wireless0426]

Me I grind my teeth at the 6 min for any fish. Sorry I don’t buy it. As a beginner yes I think you can start with a 30 and 4 fish. Next will be what are your plans. Do you want the full discus experience or just to have discus? Full would be growing them from small. Much riskier but cheaper. Buy 2-2 1/2” discus and grow them out. This would require 50% water changes daily (15g) and at least 6 feeding a day. Me I would stay away from both beefheart and live food. Especially live food!! Feed freeze dried black worms and quality pellet food. If you do this you should succeed. Buy your fish from a good source. As a beginner I’d recommend Hans. He just has strong fish. This way you have the fun of growing out your own fish. They grow in your water. If you end up enjoying it you may want to move up to a bigger tank. If not you’ve only put so much into it but still had an enjoyable time with discus.
Next if you just want the fish to look at and enjoy buy 5+” size discus. Get your 4 and again change the water 50% daily for at least a month. Than slow it down every other day for a few week then every 2 days. But you have to pay attention to the discus. They will tell you they can’t handle the water quality. Once you see them not happy go back to the last way and stay with it. Clean water no matter what is said is key to discus success.
When people say 6 many beginners dont try. In Europe and the rest of the world they don’t use the big tanks of the U.S. So many do keep discus in smaller tanks. Good luck with your adventure. Remember it’s a hobby have fun!

I'm thinking to get 4-5 juvies as you said, and considering Hans as a source. I totally agree with your WC plan.

As you mentioned, I think norm in other countries look slightly differ from US standard, though underlying ideas on water quality and WC is same. (And that's why I wanted to open this thread. Many hobbyists in Europe and asia seem to start with ~30gal, 5 juvies.)

Do you think frozen bloodworm is unnecessary too? Those frozen dried foods was enough for you to grow them without trouble?

Thanks!

[peewee1]

I'm thinking to get 4-5 juvies as you said, and considering Hans as a source. I totally agree with your WC plan.

As you mentioned, I think norm in other countries look slightly differ from US standard, though underlying ideas on water quality and WC is same. (And that's why I wanted to open this thread. Many hobbyists in Europe and asia seem to start with ~30gal, 5 juvies.)

Do you think frozen bloodworm is unnecessary too? Those frozen dried foods was enough for you to grow them without trouble?

Thanks!

You can feed only freeze dry foods but why not try a mix of food? I had had luck with a mixture of freeze dry black worms, TetraColor, and Bug Bites. This mixture seems to give all fish for those that do not prefer one of the three, for those that like to feed at the surface, and those that like to peck at their food from the bottom. I feed the frozen blood worms once a week because several of my fish do not like them. And I feed the frozen brine shrimp once a day. No live food. You might include food that contains astaxanthin an antioxidant and immune simulator. It also protects their eggs and eyes from UV light. Salmonids deposit astax in both their skin and flesh. That is why I prefer Bug Bites because it is made up of salmon by in large. But you have to be careful of astaxanthin because fish foods can contain toxic amounts of astax in order to color up discus for sale. Long term use of astax can deposit crystals of it in the fish’s eyes, and cause liver damage. Some veterinarians claim that they see more and more ornamental fish damaged by overdosing astax.

[wireless0426]

You can feed only freeze dry foods but why not try a mix of food? I had had luck with a mixture of freeze dry black worms, TetraColor, and Bug Bites. This mixture seems to give all fish for those that do not prefer one of the three, for those that like to feed at the surface, and those that like to peck at their food from the bottom. I feed the frozen blood worms once a week because several of my fish do not like them. And I feed the frozen brine shrimp once a day. No live food. You might include food that contains astaxanthin an antioxidant and immune simulator. It also protects their eggs and eyes from UV light. Salmonids deposit astax in both their skin and flesh. That is why I prefer Bug Bites because it is made up of salmon by in large. But you have to be careful of astaxanthin because fish foods can contain toxic amounts of astax in order to color up discus for sale. Long term use of astax can deposit crystals of it in the fish’s eyes, and cause liver damage. Some veterinarians claim that they see more and more ornamental fish damaged by overdosing astax.

Great. Will stick with those frozen/dried frozen food with some variety. I think dried food have certain advantage in maintaining water cleaner, especially relatively small tank setting.

[fljones3]

PeeWee1, Got a link for the bug bites you use?
Edit: I found it.

[peewee1]

PeeWee1, Got a link for the bug bites you use?

fluvalaquatic.com Says on the package "Incect larvae and salmon recipe fish food" There is a cichlid formula with "high-protein diet with sustainable processed insects" our discus eat insects in the wild and the salmon adds the red color plus astax that is found in their flesh. My lfs has it as does PetSmart I think? However, if you cannot find it, Frank, lemme know about it and I will get it for you and send by Priority Mail.