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Thread: Please help!

  1. #1
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    Question Please help!


    1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?


    One of my heaters went crazy (the thermostat malfunctioned, I am guessing) and temp (normally at 84) jumped to 90... turned it down slightly to get it to start cooling but the next day, when I got a new heater, the tank had dropped to 82... the backup heater is set to 82 and the other heater, in the meantime, failed.

    2. Symptoms.
    Noticed a small white, hard "bump" on one discuss and what [I]might[I] be fin rot on another. The one that might have fin rot was pairing off for weeks and my first thought was that it was related to breeding activities but then with the other having this spot? IDK. I thought maybe another discus had a spot too... but also wasn't sure if I was not overthinking things. Anyway... I wasn't sure so I went to my LFS and lets just say... it was not a great experience. Consensus there was to treat for fungus... API Fin and Body (Doxy).



    Decided to treat the tank to be safe. Added first dose Monday evening, second Tuesday evening.... this morning... one of the Discus is dead. (One who had no physical signs of issues but who was always the "runt" of the tank.)

    At lunch I did a 30% water change (with plans to do a second one tonight and then decide if I want to keep up with the Doxy) and noticed THIS on the OTHER side of the one that had the original "bump" (these new white patches were not there this morning). Also, noticed that two of the others were not terribly interested when I fed them lunch following the WC.



    3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

    Two of four treatments of Doxy

    Tank/Water

    4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

    65 gallon
    7 Discus (now 6 ), One Electric Blue Cichlid, 1 Rainbow Shark, 3 Tetra, 5 Cory, 1 Bristlenose, a couple of snails

    5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
    30-40%, 3 time per week

    6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

    Setup late March, stocking started mid-April, fully stocked by end of May.

    7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

    No

    8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?


    Prime during every WC, two capfuls directly into tank (I use a Python)

    9. Parameters and water source;
    API test kit

    Ph 7.3
    Ammonia .1
    Nitrite 0
    Nitrate 30

    What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

    Tap

    10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.


    No

    11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.


    Discus Hans Beef Heart 3x per week
    Discus Hans flake food 2x per day
    Various pellets (shrimp, carnivore, and cichlid)
    FD Black worms 1x/day (soaked first)
    Previously tried FD red worms and froze brine but they were uninterested in either

    12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.spot.jpgspot2.jpegfins.jpegside1.jpeg

  2. #2
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Please help!

    Welcome to the forum! I had a similar issue recently. 1 discus out of 6 started showing a little bit of fin rot just like yours. All I did was to make sure I did 50% daily water changes every day, I cleaned the filters out real good and I added 6 tablespoons of salt per 10 gallons. It showed improvement within just a couple of days. I'm not sure what's going on with the others, but it could be related. I doubt this is related to the heater malfunction, although it is possible if there were a bacterial issue that bloomed with the higher heat.

    You have a planted tank, so I would clean everything real good... the filter, tank sides, gravel, etc... I would not introduce another antibiotic for a coupe of weeks.

    And, take a look at this post and it may hep to make sense. Nearly all discus issues are water related... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-Are-Important
    Last edited by jeep; 06-30-2020 at 07:33 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Please help!

    Hi Jody,
    Welcome to SimplyDiscus!

    Reading through your details and looking at the pics I think you have a few issues but Im not sure the meds you are using are needed at all.I think you may have some aggressive nondiscus there thats contributing and I am wondering about your water. The values you listed seem off to me...can you test your water before you do a water change and randomly during the day.

    I would stop the meds and just focus on water changes and you can use table salt at 1 tablespoon per 1 gal to help them heal and to fight nitrite spikes you are possibly going to see from the meds.

    Replace what ever salt you remove doing water changes.

    Lastly keep.an eye on the fish for aggression.

    Do you have any driftwood or rocks that are sharp in the tank?

    Id like to see a few tank shots please..it may help.

    Al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 06-30-2020 at 09:07 PM.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  4. #4
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Please help!

    Also as a side note the heater issues should not have anything to do with what you are seeing here.. if this was winter and the tank dropped temp that might be different.. but the current heater problem should not affect them.
    Al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
    Simplydiscus LLC Owner
    Aquaticsuppliers.com


    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  5. #5
    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Please help!

    In addition to Brian & Al's recommendations, the white dots you're seeing are discus pimples that result from high nitrates amongst other water quality issues. You say your nitrates are 30 which is very high for discus. You should target 10 or less on water change days. To mitigate high nitrates you could increase the size or frequency of WC's, or back off on the feeding if you have adult discus (>5"). The fin damage looks like ammonia burns, prob from your biofilter crashing with the antibiotics. Refer to Brian & Al's rec's for mitigation strategy.
    Nice clean low nitrate water, the salt, and re-establishing a healthy biofilter will fix your probs!

  6. #6
    Silver Member Iminit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Please help!

    I also think it’s water related. The white spots in the first 2 pics are a sure sign you need to change more water. How big are your discus? 50% daily the spots should be gone in 3-5. Days. Fin rot could be water and maybe stress from the temp drop. And the last pic looks like an injury. As stated allready. Could have darted into something or the pleco may have discovered the discus slime coat. Some plecos will eat it. Also not a fan of the rainbow shark. Can it handle the heat? Is it an electric blue acara or ram?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Please help!

    Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I really appreciate it.

    I'll include pics of the tank. My fish are 4-5". I did a second water change tonight (80%) and put the charcoal back in as I'm entirely abandoning the Doxy (as well as that fish shop)! I also fully cleaned the filter (FX4) - I just did it two weeks ago but happy to do whatever I need. The discus with the fin rot is not doing well and is just resting on the bottom of the tank. I had a good talking to her tonight about her not being aloud to die.

    I'll check parameters again at least twice daily for a couple of days and watch the Nitrates.

    A couple of questions:
    • I have been flling the tank directly from the tap (with my Python) and dosing with Prime (2 capfuls). Could that be a contributor to the stress?
    • Would you suggest setting up an aged-water system to further reduce stress or am I just going overboard?
    • Regarding increasing the salt... I have Cory and Snails in the tank... some of those salt suggestions are VERY high... would you still stand behind high salt given the makeup of the tank?


    Anyway, thanks, again for taking the time to advise someone new to the forum. In many ways you've created a sense of relief. Extra water changes and other stress-reducing things is within my control. I know it could still go badly but at least there are concrete things I can do.

    Stay well!tank.jpeg

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Iminit View Post
    I also think it’s water related. The white spots in the first 2 pics are a sure sign you need to change more water. How big are your discus? 50% daily the spots should be gone in 3-5. Days. Fin rot could be water and maybe stress from the temp drop. And the last pic looks like an injury. As stated allready. Could have darted into something or the pleco may have discovered the discus slime coat. Some plecos will eat it. Also not a fan of the rainbow shark. Can it handle the heat? Is it an electric blue acara or ram?

    Discus are 4-5"... The rainbow shark has done well so far. I was keeping the tank around 82 until the last week or two when it was maintaining closer to 84 as the heater starting having issues until the "incident". I kept it at 84 the last several days thinking the higher temp might be better. In any case, the shark has been a happy little dude who is a particular fan of the Discus food. Like most all the other fish, though, the Doxy seems to have slowed him down.

    The non-Discus cichlid is an Electric Blue Acara.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Hi Jody,
    Welcome to SimplyDiscus!

    Reading through your details and looking at the pics I think you have a few issues but Im not sure the meds you are using are needed at all.I think you may have some aggressive nondiscus there thats contributing and I am wondering about your water. The values you listed seem off to me...can you test your water before you do a water change and randomly during the day.

    I would stop the meds and just focus on water changes and you can use table salt at 1 tablespoon per 1 gal to help them heal and to fight nitrite spikes you are possibly going to see from the meds.

    Replace what ever salt you remove doing water changes.

    Lastly keep.an eye on the fish for aggression.

    Do you have any driftwood or rocks that are sharp in the tank?

    Id like to see a few tank shots please..it may help.

    Al


    Thanks so much for taking the time to review this and for responding. The water parameters I posted were prior to the water change. The Doxy said two doses before doing a water change so those parameters were before the first WC today and 48-hours since the last WC. Nitrates are a regular challenge for me and have been for the 12 years I have kept tanks at this house. I've tested my tap water, sometimes there are Nitrates, sometimes no. Frustrating.

    1 tablespoon of salt per gallon???? 50 tablespoons (or so) in my tank???? that seems crazy high and like I may kill several tank mates? Is that maybe a typo???

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by jeep View Post
    Welcome to the forum! I had a similar issue recently. 1 discus out of 6 started showing a little bit of fin rot just like yours. All I did was to make sure I did 50% daily water changes every day, I cleaned the filters out real good and I added 6 tablespoons of salt per 10 gallons. It showed improvement within just a couple of days. I'm not sure what's going on with the others, but it could be related. I doubt this is related to the heater malfunction, although it is possible if there were a bacterial issue that bloomed with the higher heat.

    You have a planted tank, so I would clean everything real good... the filter, tank sides, gravel, etc... I would not introduce another antibiotic for a coupe of weeks.

    And, take a look at this post and it may hep to make sense. Nearly all discus issues are water related... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-Are-Important
    Thank you so much for helping me out! I'm curious about the salt... that seems incredibly high and I'm concerned about the tank mates (corys and snails) in particular. I've never done more than a tablespoon for 5 gallons in any tank so I'm nervous!

    I took your advise and did an extra cleaning of my FX4 and really got into the harder to reach spots in the tank. I'll plan on the daily 50% changes and extra cleanings.

    One other question... do you have any experience with the FX4? I find it a very frustrating filter and like a fair amount of junk gets stuck in the "crinkly" tubes rather than in the canister so it just always seems nasty. I've been seriously considering going back to a HOB so I can just do a quick cleaning each week.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by jody07 View Post
    Thanks so much for taking the time to review this and for responding. The water parameters I posted were prior to the water change. The Doxy said two doses before doing a water change so those parameters were before the first WC today and 48-hours since the last WC. Nitrates are a regular challenge for me and have been for the 12 years I have kept tanks at this house. I've tested my tap water, sometimes there are Nitrates, sometimes no. Frustrating.

    1 tablespoon of salt per gallon???? 50 tablespoons (or so) in my tank???? that seems crazy high and like I may kill several tank mates? Is that maybe a typo???
    1 tablespoon per gallon is correct.

  12. #12
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by jody07 View Post
    Thank you so much for helping me out! I'm curious about the salt... that seems incredibly high and I'm concerned about the tank mates (corys and snails) in particular. I've never done more than a tablespoon for 5 gallons in any tank so I'm nervous!

    I took your advise and did an extra cleaning of my FX4 and really got into the harder to reach spots in the tank. I'll plan on the daily 50% changes and extra cleanings.

    One other question... do you have any experience with the FX4? I find it a very frustrating filter and like a fair amount of junk gets stuck in the "crinkly" tubes rather than in the canister so it just always seems nasty. I've been seriously considering going back to a HOB so I can just do a quick cleaning each week.
    I recommended 6 tablespoons because I know how many people react It's actually not that much and Al's recommendation of 1TBS per gallon will actually be good in your situation. Don't be afraid... discus take salt very well in cases of bacterial or protozoan issues. It also helps to increase slime production and help with infection. Don't bother with aquarium salt, it's too expensive. As long as there are no additives, salt is salt. I use Solar salt for water softeners from Home Depot and it's less than $5 for 50lbs.

    Yes, adding water straight from tap can be a huge stress factor, especially when doing large water changes. Pressurized water supplies contain co2 and as the water aerates and ages, the co2 expands and can irritate the gills, slime coat and can alter ph. I use 55g drums to age my water a day in advance of water changes and use a submersible pump to pump the water into the tanks. In winter I use a heater to heat the water to near tank temps. Many people also use something like a Brute trash can to age water if they don't like the looks of a 55g drum sitting in their house. You can place it anywhere you want to keep it hidden as long as you have a pump powerful enough to transfer the water.

    I'm not a canister user, and after seeing various reports of people having issues with them, I don't think I ever will be. My tanks only have sponge filters, although I did add a HOB on one of them and the water is much clearer. At some point, I may add HOB's to all my tanks.

    PS... I don't know how your other fish will react to salt. I'm just mainly a discus person...
    Last edited by jeep; 07-01-2020 at 09:30 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Please help!

    After re-reading your initial post, I think we're on the right path here. You may want to move the other fish to another tank while treating the discus because of the amount of salt. You have a pretty high bio-load with all those fish in a 65g tank. The basic rule is 1 adult discus per 10g, and with the other tank mates you are definitely maxed out. I would suggest making a commitment to large daily water changes even after your issues are resolved.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Please help!

    Thanks, again, everyone.

    5 of my remaining 6 Discus were doing well this morning. They are still in the tank and I'll focus on water changes and salt at a level the rest of the inhabitants can handle. If I need to bump it up, I'll relocate the others to the hospital tank and bump up the salt.

    For now, my 6th Discuss is in the hospital tank. She was really doing very poorly last night and I wanted to be able to have her where I could keep the water uber clean. To my delight, she was still with us this morning but not markedly better. I'm going to do WCs all around and then will bump up the salt in the hospital tank quite a lot, per the great advice I am getting here. She is doing some weird things with her fins and has been for the last hour or two.... thoughts?

    https://youtu.be/YLpQpbOhbWw


    I'm also going to setup a way to age and heat my water.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by jody07 View Post
    Thanks, again, everyone.

    5 of my remaining 6 Discus were doing well this morning. They are still in the tank and I'll focus on water changes and salt at a level the rest of the inhabitants can handle. If I need to bump it up, I'll relocate the others to the hospital tank and bump up the salt.

    For now, my 6th Discuss is in the hospital tank. She was really doing very poorly last night and I wanted to be able to have her where I could keep the water uber clean. To my delight, she was still with us this morning but not markedly better. I'm going to do WCs all around and then will bump up the salt in the hospital tank quite a lot, per the great advice I am getting here. She is doing some weird things with her fins and has been for the last hour or two.... thoughts?

    https://youtu.be/YLpQpbOhbWw


    I'm also going to setup a way to age and heat my water.
    I realize that all possible maladies are possible but here is an example for you. Monday I had two adult discus who turned dark with what appeared to be slime skin related issues. I treated with salt, Prime, and 50% water change. In less than 12 hours the dark began to turn to light and within 24 hours natural color had returned and most of the skin issues had disappeared. I have experienced this same condition over the years and the result is always the same. My opinion is that salt is my first go to treatment along with the water change. I use sea salt.

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