Discus not eating and reclusive (others have died)

[jamie_macl]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Sorry in advance for the information dump.

I’m new to discus having previously kept other tropicals. I thought having done research that I would be okay with a planted tank having seen all the other examples around online. I setup a planted tank with injected CO2 and had it set up for about three months before adding discus.

I added 7 discus (8 weeks old) with 19 cardinal tetras that had been added about a month earlier. The discus were added just over a month ago.

They spent a lot of time hiding in and around the aquascape but I was lead to believe that this was not surprising for discus being shy fish especially as juveniles.
After three weeks I discovered one of the discus dead in the tank that had previously ‘seemed’ fine. It had had an issue with it’s eye so we wondered if it was just one of those things.

A week later having done some more research I worked out that Co2 injection and planted discus tanks wasn’t something I should be messing with right now so I turned that off and pull out most of the aquascape.

While doing this I found another dead discus that had been alive the day before.
Around this time I decided to gradually move over to an RO water mix in order to get my nitrate level (which was about 30-40ppm) as well as my hardness (16 degrees) down.

Unfortunately i had another discus die which had been struggling for a few days, not eating and hiding at the top corner of the tank and did at one point have some pale poop.
Before it died I was hoping that it’s hiding was down to stress and hoped that it would improve with the changes I’d implemented. Unfortunately it didn’t.

I was then left with four discus in a pretty open tank with just sand and a few rocks. I noticed a night and day change with them in general with them being very interactive and not hiding from me when I walked in to the room. They were also all much better with eating.

About ten days ago one of them which had previously been the alpha of the tank started being more reclusive, much less aggressive while feeding and generally spending less time with the group.

I generally noticed a lot more fighting between the four remaining discus so wondered if the new symptoms in the new fish were down to stress of being in an aggressive group of four. I knew four wasn’t an ideal number so decided to get another four in the hopes this would defuse the aggression in the group and that with the changes I’ve since made these ones would live.

While the aggression has gone down significantly the fish is still acting strangely with symptoms outlined bellow.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

The main symptom is behaviour. My focus is on one fish in particular but now I’m spotting a few other fish that may be exhibiting the same behaviour.

The fish is interested in food and swims towards it but most of the time doesn’t actually tend to eat. Sometimes it does but will then spit back out again being unclear as to whether it’s actually eating anything. It used to spend time foraging around the rocks but I’m not sure if it was actually eating.

Sometimes it (as well as a couple of others now) will sit at the back of the tank not moving much for a while however other times it’s fine to just hang out and even be territorial.

I’ve also noticed that it’s top and bottom fin will sometimes be clamped in comparison to the rest of the fish. I’ve been unable to get a picture of this as every time I try it decides to stop.

Having added the medication yesterday, last night I noticed one of the fish with some pale lumpy poop (not the one I’ve been focusing on) but haven’t noticed any other symptoms on them.

In general I’ve not noticed any physical symptoms that I can recognise but then I’m new to discus so perhaps I’m missing something. I don’t remember if the main one flashing but then I’ve now removed all the tank décor so I can’t check.




3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Dosed the entire tank with AquaCare Anti-Flluke & Wormer yesterday on the advice of my LFS. I followed the dosing instructions adding 4.5ml to my tank.

I’ve also put in an airstone while treating to keep the oxygen levels up.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
240L set up four months ago with 8 juvenile Discus and 19 Cardinal Tetra


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
Was doing 25% 2/3 times a week but have for the last week been doing 25% delay.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Tank is four months old and has sand substrate. Now it’s about 2.5cm deep but it used to be much deeper until about a week ago when I removed the majority of the sand.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
No.


8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
Seachem Prime. I used to just add to the tank when I was doing a tap water change. For the last two weeks I’ve been doing a 25:75 Tap to RO mix and now add the prime to the 25% in my containers first.


9. Parameters and water source;
Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp = 29C

- ph = 7.4

- ammonia reading = 0

- nitrite reading = 0

- nitrate reading = 10

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water = 0

- municipal water = 25%

- RO water = 75%


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

Four new discus got added a week ago but the fish’s problem preceded this.

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

I feed a muscle mix I got directly from the breeder. It comes frozen which I then defrost before feeding. I feed about five times per day.



12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.


Video focusing on the main problem fish but also general discus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq66I7ejcZM

Photo of poop from another fish after a few hours of worm treatment.
109727986_691077464808515_5077655321061287315_n.jpg

Photo of three of the discus just hanging out at the side of tank.
109932397_1600612803451118_2893489750214876110_n.jpg


Obviously I'm a bit desperate and despondent about the whole thing so would really appreciate anyone's help! Thanks

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Jamie,

Welcome to the forum and you have had a rough go so far. I have some questions. Did your tap water have high nitrates causing you to use RO water? How do you add your RO and tap to the tank? Do you premix it in a container before adding to the tank? It would be better to add the RO and tap water to a mixing bin (like a brute trashcan), add an airstone and allow it to mix and age a bit before using. The reason for suggesting this is to reduce a possible stressor on the fish.

What are the instuctions on the AquaCare Anti-Flluke & Wormer? Looks like you treat with one dose and retreat in a week if needed. There is a good chance the poop you are seeing from the one fish is caused by the dewormer. To help the fish you can add epsom salt to the water (two tablespoon per 10 gallons) to aid in allowing the fish to pass the poop.

Pat

[jamie_macl]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for getting back to me.

My tap water nitrates were about 30-40ppm which is why I decided to move over to RO.

My water process is that I fill 25% of a 25 litre container (I have two of these to give me a total of 50 litres) with tap water, add Seachem Prime and then let my RO unit fill up the rest. I then put a heater in the jerry can to get it to the right temperature before using a pump to add it to the tank.

If I was ageing the water how long would you suggest doing this for?


The AquaCare Anti-Fluke and Wormer instructions are as you've mentioned; treat one dose and then re-treat once a week up to four times. I was unsure if I should be doing water changes in this time and if I was, whether or not I should add the proportional dosing amount to the newly added water.

Thanks for the advice about Epsom salts, I'll give this a go.

Is there any thing you can think of that would explain the strange behaviour of the first discus (and now definitely another couple have started acting strangely) over the last ten days?

Also another symptom that I've noticed that I'm not sure if it's relevant is the discus ruffling or twitching their dorsal fins. Not sure if this is relevant?

Thanks for the help!

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for getting back to me.

My tap water nitrates were about 30-40ppm which is why I decided to move over to RO.

My water process is that I fill 25% of a 25 litre container (I have two of these to give me a total of 50 litres) with tap water, add Seachem Prime and then let my RO unit fill up the rest. I then put a heater in the jerry can to get it to the right temperature before using a pump to add it to the tank.

If I was ageing the water how long would you suggest doing this for?


The AquaCare Anti-Fluke and Wormer instructions are as you've mentioned; treat one dose and then re-treat once a week up to four times. I was unsure if I should be doing water changes in this time and if I was, whether or not I should add the proportional dosing amount to the newly added water.

Thanks for the advice about Epsom salts, I'll give this a go.

Is there any thing you can think of that would explain the strange behaviour of the first discus (and now definitely another couple have started acting strangely) over the last ten days?

Also another symptom that I've noticed that I'm not sure if it's relevant is the discus ruffling or twitching their dorsal fins. Not sure if this is relevant?

Thanks for the help!

Hi Jamie,

Most fluke and dewormers is a 24 bath (one dose in the tank) and a large water change after the 24 hours to start removing the medication from the tank. So continue with your daily WCs without adding any more medication. Are you in the UK? I think many discus keepers use HMA filters to clean up the water for their discus. Perhaps something to checkout.

When did you add the additional four discus? If recently you could be seeing some cross contamination issues. Research how to quarantine here on the forum. Lets see if the medication has any positive effects over the next couple days. Another thing you could do is add regular table salt to the tank to help the fish feel better. Say three or four tablespoons per 10 gallons for a week. Replace the salt for the volume of water you remove during a water change.

Most age their water for about 24 hours or so.

Pat

[jamie_macl]

Thanks for the heads up about the 24 hour medication time. I'll keep up with my daily water changes.

The new discus were added about a week ago but were from the same breeder and the others had only been in the tank for a month before that so I hoped I would be alright.

I'll hope for the best with the current medication but also add some salt. Hopefully that will help things out. Thanks for the advice Pat!

[fljones3]

I am pretty sure that this is not the problem but I would add the Prime to the main tank when you are doing the WC instead of adding it to the barrel, waiting until its full, aging the water.

Not sure what "muscle mix" is, but I would use pellets in order to reduce the potential bioload from the frozen food. Frozen food "can" thaw then refreeze, thaw, refreeze, etc. That can cause issues.

Just some thoughts.

[jamie_macl]

Thanks for the response. Happy to start adding Prime to the main tank rather than barrel. Out of interest why is this preferable?

Muscle Mix was the food recommended by the breeder which is why I'm using it - https://www.discus-fish-sales.co.uk/...USSEL-MIX.html

Will have a look at pellets though and see if I can find some to give a go.

Thanks!

[Iminit]

Just looking at the first discus pic with the poo. That fish is very thin. Like it hasn’t been eating for a while. Also eye to body is way off. I’m guessing it’s from the first batch. The second 3 though small and not a up close pic do look better. What part of the UK are you in. Never heard of muscle mix. Looks very messy. 25% water change for that size discus is not enough. Being sick raise the temp to 31c and change 75% daily. It’s clean water they need. Yes your tap nitrates are a problem so you have to bring them down. Are they eating the food?

[fljones3]

Muscle mix = Mussel Mix

Just looking at the first discus pic with the poo. That fish is very thin. Like it hasn’t been eating for a while. Also eye to body is way off. I’m guessing it’s from the first batch. The second 3 though small and not a up close pic do look better. What part of the UK are you in. Never heard of muscle mix. Looks very messy. 25% water change for that size discus is not enough. Being sick raise the temp to 31c and change 75% daily. It’s clean water they need. Yes your tap nitrates are a problem so you have to bring them down. Are they eating the food?

[fljones3]

Prime is active for up to 48 hours (if memory serves).
I use Tropical D-50 along with Tropical Wilds. You can try that along with FDBW.

Thanks for the response. Happy to start adding Prime to the main tank rather than barrel. Out of interest why is this preferable?

Muscle Mix was the food recommended by the breeder which is why I'm using it - https://www.discus-fish-sales.co.uk/...USSEL-MIX.html

Will have a look at pellets though and see if I can find some to give a go.

Thanks!

[Iminit]

Lol Frank I knew that!

[snxtif]

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
Was doing 25% 2/3 times a week but have for the last week been doing 25% delay.

With this size of discus, I'd do 99% water change, twice daily...
Bare bottom tank.

[jamie_macl]

Muscle mix = Mussel Mix

Oops! Yes I meant the seafood obviously, my bad!

[jamie_macl]

Just looking at the first discus pic with the poo. That fish is very thin. Like it hasn’t been eating for a while. Also eye to body is way off. I’m guessing it’s from the first batch. 25% water change for that size discus is not enough. Being sick raise the temp to 31c and change 75% daily. It’s clean water they need. Yes your tap nitrates are a problem so you have to bring them down. Are they eating the food?

So the fish with the poo is actually from the second batch so I've only had them for about ten days. It has been eating so possibly it's small size is just age related?

I'm down in London and running a 75% RO to tap water mix. I'll put them temperature up to 31c and see if that helps.

Water change wise, this is where I've run into lots of conflicting information. The breeder that I bought them from told me that 30% every 5 days was sufficient which is why I took it that 25% daily would be a good mark to hit.
Unfortunately I just don't have the RO system or the storage at home to be able to create and keep enough water to do 75% water change a day, no way that I could do 99% two times a day.
For what it's worth, whenever I test the water parameters everything seems to be fine.

As a general update, they all seem to be eating (some more aggressively than others). Unfortunately I've had the one I was worried about in particular hanging in the top right hand corner of the tank most of the day and not moving around much. I just fed them though and he came and for some food.

Right now all I've done is the first week's course of Anti-fluke and wormer and have also done two 25% water changes using 4tbs of API Aquarium Salt. Is there any other medication that I should be using?

[jamie_macl]

Quick update; the fish I was originally concerned about seem to be about the same if not slightly better.

My new big concern is one of the other fish which has previously seemed absolutely fine but all of a sudden last night a few minutes after I turned the lights out started freaking out, swimming erratically and quickly around the tank a lot of the time completely horizontal. It even at points crashed into the bottom of the tank.
It’s not consistently acting like this as it’ll then act relatively normally.

I hoped it was a weird stress thing and that it would clear up by the morning.
Just before I did my first water cha he if the morning today I saw it doing something not on the same level but still similar.
Again it’s inconsistent so it’s hard to get a video of. When it happens it’s only for about 1-2min before it ‘mostly’ acts normally.

For reference I did 2x25% water changes yesterday as with the last two days and have been dosing with 4tbs of API Aquarium Salt per 50L when doing my water change.
The tanks temp has also been set to 30c.


Is this linked to the others? I’ve only seen this behaviour minutes before one of the original discus died in front of me but this one seems okay a lot of the time and has been absolutely fine up until last night.

Has anyone got any suggestions? Getting a bit desperate in general with these fish!